Episode: Hr2: Homo Naledi Fossil Find, Rush Holt on Science Policy


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Hr2: Homo Naledi Fossil Find, Rush Holt on Science Policy
A paleoanthropological find in a South African cave, and a conversation with Rush Holt, former congressman and plasma physicist, now AAAS head.

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Automated Transcript (Why is this transcription so bad?)
this is science friday i'm ira play no scientific discoveries especially in archaeology bailey or geology and sometimes phillips dramatic historic finds hideo lois mary leakey told by gorge dam aldred to lucy those strange habits in indonesia but this next story in my mind at least is among the most remarkable of intensely mind blowing of them all on the set the stage point earlier this year we reported on a remarkable discovering the fossilized mandible studied with chief found on a hillside in ethiopia some two point eight million years old it could be your earliest don't member of the genus called and it was an exciting find for shore line yesterday scientists announced a virtual galaxy of specimens to that single start an enormous trove of human got out of that human of how many in fossils over fifteen hundred pieces from at least fifteen individuals and probably like sickly branching off about two and a half million years ago when exactly whoa sure about that mentor to talk about that this hour because of the evening news species homo know ready and possibly more intriguing in the fossil itself is the chamber in which he was found it was pitch black he'd know wayne keeping the rising star cave biondi long crack to seven inches wide and a place with the bones were found these cell inaccessible so deep in the cave the expedition leader the burger need so called underground astronauts to retrieve them so you put out a facebook post have to find him anna koch from that those individuals with excellent archaeological splash bailing into logical an excavation skills for a short term project the catch is this the person must be skinny and preferably small they must not be claustrophobic they must fit they should have some caving experience and climbing experience could be oddball next to getting good shape the debate gave reagan remember claustrophobic hard to find folks of fit that description not he was overwhelmed with responses including one for my next guest who found herself on a plane to south africa a few weeks later and morris is an archaeologist at the university of georgia in athens look of the science friday arid went wrong well let's talk about that take us into this case to describe how you got into the chamber where the bones were found monitored know when you and to cut a year actually get to a hearing and a long narrow hallway that the media he prank airtran you come to all ladder and eat it and emblematic of an air holloway and john aninat hypocrite cater to indicate that and and and computer and crawl into the wall behind all and we got a fever and profited from the bed by getting rid of reckoning actually have been at one end of that their head and the other arm down to their side and that their shoulders the eternal though when he prompted a panel here actually advocate of cat and that which aimed at the hall near underground rid them at that point we actually confining her in bed and the crept into a brief period and tweaked climbed twenty years that find it there are counted them when he hit the top and that in fact you're off at the top of the sheep and and for that a defendant gap in and finish it is about twelve meters for a play the athens and and i'm one of the natal enlightenment reverted kept piling up and you one way past i have the camp of whom i can lengthen thirty eight did it nick anything at one point actually at the turn my head sideways and helmut kohl that period that you and at the very bottom there's that for me either dropped that will take you to the floor of actual awful chamber and others that small flat at the time an issue that can swing wide may check thank you and and and payola london theater dangling the levee i can lower myself into that into the light and i have a whole wall of the cave on the ladder and make that final drop into the tunnel any chamber where the navy awful relented and successively the other people could do this there were at five hundred primary and invaders you were acknowledgment and helium into politics an hour off now and you volunteers indicators you were supporting and and and that they can often make it an end to the chambers that that happened i had a keen on people and plastic to told sark into these levels tiny slits in the case is this in the new year's beard you're braver than i will ever be an act of us at that well thank you you know someone by my favorite that meant the red granite heard it heritage being brave unafraid of a bad thing behind the island and that i would think they've opened and that number two one isn't overcame it's yours as brave resists thank you for or related that story too is that an end to twenty one and congratulations on that they might have an idiot hamar is archaeologist at the university of georgia it's hey man acting as being called underground astronauts who is really the first to go or no one went before tom what would do bringing these bono why why it first of all the bone so deep in a cave in to this discovery raises so many different questions that look of a species could these bones belonged to his advanced culture with a sense of ritual sparked it that makes us homo sapiens today we're getting fit an evolutionary tree cutting said many times as per remember aries discoveries may re write the textbooks and this would have to rank way upstairs sort of talk about it for wow without really burger air research professor and bits university in south africa in exploring residence as the national geographic welcome back going to ignore it john hawkes is a pale ale anthropologist at the university of wisconsin in madison now welcome back john things are odd john can you describe what the species looks like how human days it absolutely going to apologize to ever been listening because we were going cheering some lunch yesterday or did somebody your views of my voice is older shot of the carry on as best as i can play it down so pomona led the stood about five feet tall i'm here to head the very skinny build if you would look at it from a distance of its bones and legs and arms both free thea and so we think it was filled with small and mass for its stature its feet and lower legs were very human like a mitzvah bones are almost indistinguishable from those of a modern humans we think it had a very human like stance in other words would want to every human mike way it's havens which are of the most complete herons ever discovered pre the neanderthals of three recent u. of fossils are a oral so strikingly human like in the details the wrist bone sir range and inhuman like way more so than in the earlier hamann and the thumb is proportion done in the way that human thumbs are reluctant to or fingers in the fingertips are free broaden well made food for grafting objects of manipulating them during the wicked humor like way but the fingers of freak or to harm him to the shoulders are also served him to go upwards into place the letter which were the sides of the of the trunk and that's indicative of probably are very good ability to climb the gave one olivia are really different look as you look to proper body compared to modern humans it's hips were relatively broaden flared as we get to it had its head skull was configured very much like the skulls of really members of our gents species like home where records with the brow ridge with very large ridges on the side something we're with stole to support the musculature of the jaws to come back however it's teeth were quite a lot smaller than those pearly members of the germans hear more human like him somewhere simplified under under the queen's one out of the end it's bringing was quite a lot smaller than any of your remembers over generous with a range from about four hundred fifty ccs to about five hundred fifty ccs so looking at home ability from from football to have you start to see the fiercest pattern of some very human like features i'm some features the most comparable to her we members of our generous in them some very primitive features are we found a much earlier comments and somehow surprising is this does it does it fit anywhere it's a dirt road to different pattern for the pattern of primitive and drive features than we are fair and another species to gary tuchman live in south africa we are the species homo australopithecus a beaver which is to whitehall alike in some details of its of its hips there with steve and its face one olivia's descriptive notes it's not human mike and yet it's a beaver is very primitive baron directed very different from humans its feet poletti has almost human like feet or so it gets this different pattern of of similarities and differences from humans that that's very interesting to us we burger king you give us any idea how all these bones of our number at right now the chamber that they are found in her ear is pretty unique in that they are the only thing they are there immediately eliminate what would be for typical way we can afford them have bade the he animal you would find blood where the chamber that only filled with valve of the remainder of his speech effectively the but could we can both agree to put the every other awful flooded with forthwith to have in africa here and it's not that hard man to walk like matrix of vision of overlying blood calendar underlying quote that we've been able to get a date on and to mean it the fall who are better to our actually are entirely to life committee the chambers fell head over the key to the ervin irvin opened the fervid even the kindred know wherever men into one of the time it off when we come down both agoraphobia know are within the dark that would even be reviewed and promise of the vehicle and two other wives completely blown that the likud popcorn did bay were young and who we evade awful lot of other walked back to acquit the problem of power the emblem of course we could reply to the diedrich t. my good they are if they have been very very young i'm like real carbon electrodes been written because we are go out and troy all the material and on crime but tell that while we have to wait and now we will try them on a bitter with more fallen tree hill it might be a queer the speech he must return for printing paper why you describe a claim to a member of the homo that the two point eight nine years vegetation that july relative to come home on the lady in patient in any way though are almost every other month of the time of curly homo they did to weed that the key to overcome a half million you didn't order for a living witness to take a break we're gonna come back and talk lots more about assume that in tennis souls to join isn't the conversations on refer four seven to forty two five five stay with us be right back after the short run this is science friday i'm ira plato we're talking about a human origins this hour in about an incredible find of the incredible number of fossils in caves in south africa we burger is a research professor at its university of south african explorer in residence at national geographic john talks going on illinois at the biologist you receive a wisconsin a massive how murmuring among them against a long time observer of many years of fossil finds the entire saw was a paleo anthropologist them curator emeritus of the american museum of natural history in new york an offer of the strange case of the rickety casa on about the size crying think it what's what's your view honesty was blown away is everybody else's is impossible not to be blown away by this time this is almost staggering finds the being made in the history of violence graphology and that is all you want comparable case what can think of the massacres of the super los whistles and how plug in spain where again to treasure trove of individuals of mixed income on his b. c.'s will follow the bottom of a hole in the book i met at the end of that faith tom nothing like this has been flown previously been i recall talking wants to be up to the garden with us evading of the side of a hooker and he said i am the only by leo anthropologist who can decide the beginning of my feels he's um how money only fall so on collect them was collected them like an all and that now he's not alone of these guys success at a little at a bar in the same situation as foam ago the ballet yeah reorient hannity do we know how they got the earth is is tiny little hole it's a it's like going to convolution says as you want her to get them to bed chamber how did the one that pirate remarkable situation and albeit we initially we were looking for the normal thing not a creditor it actually was our job but brought him in there but they're no more warned that any of the bee be kept the clearly came in i'll hold a number of one of the sheet and predator really couldn't get it could take him over the side we come a gavin de mark we could move into compliment get an aria of the beekman company to come in over time that is we have the picture with the weaken the fervent haven't offered to original air in all i've been through the media not all it was the one that the situation of the demographic to really look like that either we have only to turn each individual who unavoidably collected the population including the people each individual and colonel individual whom everything in between and we could really moved back to the victim clapped running the dna came in one of the time but we know they were walking her because there's no internal government has no move my room and bywater anything like that and eventually will lead to situation where they keep down the more the power which way do you think that the fed to them food cashed in the hunt for the were body to fumble and we can work with the ought to put believe me aren't you well committee in what can they get him to get them off the two are forgiven for the idea that know the reward money to live with doctor ahmad hundred tied to her and we looked at the very alive and in venezuela and now that the non human wrote to argue that would potentially deliberately did come to get that dog chamber move me very difficult to get two no other animal got there before during or after and that he did decide his life he that they can really place the dna know the bones than women is gene you're free to find an age to find out in others the limitations which could consider online closely than is carnival cool slaying the we don't yet know how old are they on i'm sure that that suddenly n. is calling isn't it an humble mrs soon as possible right now we have to look at what they look like we actually have to look at their anatomy in order to decide what they might be and a very often people are influenced by the age of all saloon looking at the then making that decision and in most cases are we looking at them with all the things that are largely tobias oates joan looking at how all these other species approached human anatomy and in some way or another is one has more human hands maybe another has more humor mike's goal that does it suggest that there is more than one way to be human you know it's really interesting movies these different species were all influenced by their environments they were getting within in africa which was very diverse intelligence karin dugan of course we don't know the time that homo know what he was living on the landscape so we can place an environment in that sense we had a team of of more than fifty people working in the lab on different parts of the anatomy of a team working on him the team working on the footman and so on and they each worked totally into their partly out of it you know they they came in with the defense and extensive experience with at the hamann unhindered flight here and here we got group and our you know everybody likes the scraping the fossils they have to bring them everything under your bill they feel like well what sort of know what's gone on here and they would talk to the people the next table the people working on the hip would say i'm that's our this is the only real hope for scope as we began to build this picture we realize that that yeah but we're looking at a situation where we have different palm in forms which have some leary's with humans and their different similarities that must be the consequence of cove convergence an evolutionary sense that it means that it makes a very difficult for us to trace back which of those might be the end of the common ancestor of later hobo which of them might be off on their own little direction just go to the phones john inept also call my job by saturday and my bad wandered out a tortured i'm good with the area of the regret of private go crawling down the turnpike won't do you know we could find what does that worry you party now though before the call button or somethin' ought with questions in the eye and inadequate b. m. and we hired a former state of mind to actually put together a team and underground heating up again looking for you and the widow and fair and i had him after they've been created when he found a modified that in itself may have only cate died he lifted and her to to keep up for hunter and that they are ideologically appropriate to get into the very small bacon i am not more marketer of the things that i actually i good anyway individualize and start to come up monkey from africa would often after climbing up to rid him of the beautiful describe drop down without going to bottom good that during a week and down the chamber of the cameroon group the middle definitely think that i thought was so popular with kept one i need to pack for guys who by the expedition and we created one of whom there won't you didn't just to be clear in the years vera how many bombs that family fossils to fifteen thundering we have to we'll go to our want to we need week the clinton papers one thousand five hundred fifty but individual who remembered element the wild about it either of the individual at the very minimum we have left that valve to vain but chamber where mean that individual woman feel know how many individuals will be left that didn't hire him would be cake came pretty good week of the floor one f four hundred element that they give a hint of about up about a yard by about half of what one thousand one hundred for the film and a premier event small you he is the word pathetically comprised of remainder pomona led while i'm you know um hum i'm trying those pictures in my mind is something like raiders of the lost ark down man you know the bone this summer i'll go up to one of top of each other to get one would like it he you sort of thing intuitive micronesia and burial chambers material it i go to a good bet on overtime to that effect would like that one of only a third and fifth on a high definition video that had been high up that get rid leaders to them and that the what it looked like when you use the cameras in the pub need to be there to look at at the end slowly as the odds of tom's tomb of local your anthropology if you want it's an absolute dream to have a sample like this all the hot and extinct common with adults in the tilden and males and females had to give you some idea of the elbe of people want the population a minute unlike a monument and it is isolated from pull all the kinds of information about that population like environment and culture and so on grouping can you get dna added these bones were certainly going to try them southern africa is not necessarily the ideal of what for the dna is best preserved really cool places really dry places are cave is this pre war room three boys let's go back with an exceptional preservation as we have them into the bones we think that there's some possibility and we're working on that on that stone is sandy n. at tucson arizona ice any law come out when you are i am flight one hundred and being blind like that where they are researchers have ever will be the word that people live in that cave or we'd have biden remain ah i wandered in those waters taken of me now who lived in the area because the people who burying who are very keen to remain part of the media the bearer of relatives bomb probably didn't work in the dark they are tortured or murdered while we're take an active boy made off the rock move that the big question um we will be a week we've got robbed him home from the interior of that cave in of course we're looking at ways right now to look for things like why we allude to that possibility that they can live with a pure speculation that could change the idea that the kid fate we have not found it easy for me to be in line of that particular good to come we are looking we are the defiant he awakened of the country to establish that i'm lawfully that he would be good one disadvantage to eat that bit that there have been times when water table and we've been here to papa blues rid of britain and in that case nothing that could possibly help them with the evidence that clay felker could clean ought to do with what they've ever been wiped 'em but we are doing every effort to try and prevent everything from organic material to the possibility of wind and we're we're going to leave cordell of holland and the hunt for you gain of remarkable situation what to do john how close to you you'd near to the description of old bones how close are how far in general was it from our bus today and in in in a day to make question bob does is give us any idea of why our species homo sapiens succeeded leaving africa is bring our own when this water did not well it's religion to two hours done if we put on conner family tree looks like it it's ancestors would diverge from our ancestors probably two point five to two point eight billion years ago if there are the very base of our generous in other words again we don't know whether it but if persisted for a long time after that common ancestor to the species might even existed alongside of humans is the oval office but so bad that word branches from us half i think we're looking at a time of extraordinary experimentation there between two and half two billion years ago there were certainly find evidence of them diversity armaments amara player this assigned frannie from p. r. i. public radio international starting with every burger jocks onion pass all you know off the charcoal about science monitor from scientists all the time i was struck fear the day of speaking about the universe and cosmology and the idea the multipurpose worry that was all kinds of universes of that possibly existed then we just happen to be the one that survived an icy always different you know it's discoveries is very multi verse and and it's no one in yellow waited which is something happen to be the pervert want to let led to last well this is what this elephant is so is really emphasizing is that the uh evolution of the one family as small being the selenium trod from primitive most of affection that we world for bodies when all was in school uh-huh many years ago now it has been business as a john referred to a process of vigorous evolutionary experimentation throwing out new variations on the hominid thing to do battle in ecological arena and took two surviving give give rise to the senate sold to fail and up and become extinct and this is the path of months were the emerging and emphasized by five like this new one on one with janet emily would you agree to what i think that it could pair of melody that when they even say something else something is totally tool that you know we now know that he really going to mortgage the relationships of neanderthals and later human ancestors based on dna we don't have it here for nobody but it certainly giving us a different picture of the way that that engine populations existed we know that in recent human origins the interacted with each other the red with each other sometimes even though they were very different how we don't know that for we homo but said that we're start to look at the fossil record in a very different way that we might've been ten years ago it's really exciting time in our field really you made a name for yourself as someone who advances or knowledge of human evolution through aggressive baked exploration signing these incredible new specimens people leave is still a lot hiding out there and we would you put your money you know for anonymity out with blank check question where we jupiter my name terms of where to look next to where will it are really very worried he didn't feel right now we're yelling that region on the way at cover of what your i've proven to be different types of awful and an edward what the law it would start a mute are with you that way and we are making a good coverage of the communique that if you don't need to write you going yes i wouldn't do it really need to have explored and others africa the p. old world i'm happy kid would be discovery or who proved you think he ever really want all who paid you want him half kilometer that would have a mile away from doctor could take the most effective economic hoffman that people literally in the valley to the fund for going to walk onto on the new it'll bite ever discovered i'm coming back white will remain good will marry being mutilated roadsides absolutely als lou please this is just gives us an idea the witches listing look good on wall was really out there said and out leandro they use the main shaft ago never you mentioned something tantalizing by having already made a note to discover so to let local to cover it all we needed more than what it off so we will ha-ha ha-ha huh huh huh arana kato said you'll wake retrieval was a live event ever thought about our thank all of you for taking them to be with us today the burger research professor of its universe itself africa exploring residents of national geographic jock strap lilith apologies can receive that of wisconsin in madison into an assault elio anthropologist and curator emeritus of emerge museum of natural history in new york as to why more home on the legacy october cover story in national geographic magazine is to be a no-good documentary out to our next week and of meat and find out more about about our site at science friday after the break with the dark about as scientists scientists come play role of public policy decisions of the right back after this break stay with us this is science friday i'm ira plato what is the role of scientists in public policy decisions albert einstein wrote a letter to president roosevelt warning him about nazi germany developing the atomic bomb also wrote those with the privilege to know have the duty to act dance floor into this year we're scientists have been quite involved with political decision making sitting next to secretary of state john kerry as the hash doubting nuclear deal with iran was energy secretary earnest mommy's a nuclear physicist terms of the deal was spelled out during a face to face meeting by two scientists mummies and his iranian counterpart ali akbar so late and just as we could group of twenty nine scientists including one of my next guests signed a letter backing a proposal calling it innovative and stringent so what role can scientists playing in determining global policy sure the day how can signs making roads were other negotiations fall short of me to use my guest partial to the former congressional representative for new jersey's twelfth district any former plasma physicist is now the ceo the american association for the advancement signs an executive publisher of the science journal group which puts out a science magazine will come to size ready good to talk you again nothing sire i always look for to being with you thank you bob want to regain is the science and technology officer to the secretary of state that thank you for taking time the news today if someone turned toward our rush whiting you feel is important to send that letter and backing the deal has assigned his view this point it's really compared to a politician will after the agreement was announced in the hundred and some pages were available as some former foreign service officers n. and ambassadors wrote a letter saying that from their point of view they thought this really made sense internationally and then a group of flag officers admirals and generals wrote a letter saying from their point of view of militarily the id it made sense as so some of us with a background in the science and technology of nuclear proliferation of nuclear weapons and so forth looked at it and i came to the conclusion that from our point of view has switched regard to verification and then the detection of diversion and that the things that nonproliferation specialists are concerned about that does make sense it had a hangs together and as we said the letter it to their number to innovations in it's a really quite as strong for this kind of thing the strongest on agreement and so we thought we are not put that down in writing for the president and that i am release that to the public record of albert einstein about though those of the privilege to know that the duty to act that was really long long lines of big of scientists having where been privileged to know about these things and acting on a privilege if they get tired you know it says is a privilege should it to be a scientist at it's an accidental and exciting know of the path of discovery but there are some obligation to come with and obligations for the practice of the science to make sure that we follow good of ethical and that will rules of open communication unfairness in the application of our science and so forth and then there are also operative the obligations to i think to make sure that the science is used for the public good and that means communicating in part communicating with the public about science in this case so that the technology that swill aided to buy weapons nuclear weapons upon as science and technology adviser to the secretary of state it does diplomacy is that science have a place in diplomacy or dozed to do the does the secretary's to just told me no bliss an arm and sort of taken out why you know we are invaded earth and the question i think that what we're seeing more and more and in the world today is that it up that talented of the world faded are now paying more and more try and technology helped to an engineering issues coming in to them i mean you you mentioned one of them there are there and number bothers term health issues that we saw in in africa are with him at the ball and at that spread we hit with the issues around and barman in energy in and figuring out how that could make bold oh on an amount of energy but also mcqueen way and indeed are wormhole to counter it but they're also inherently science technology engineering and help counter the teamwork that and if the region really why over the last fifteen years there's been a real effort to increase the numbers of tired of gunfire coming into the hundred eight on him but on the job for the love for dave another thing that had the privilege of being persecuted by four of been invited to serve him with him or i'm in right now who sign of the zone right now that said that we're opening diplomatic relations with the two books on cuba as some of the most pristine marine ecology systems and in the world isn't his science could be working smirk as scientists working down there to learn about that too got a good dinner or not at all that much and you'd briefly that this by heavy opportunity when i was not the government's theory early on even when the relationships we're not we're there now to to be part of a group and it went down and talk about by and broadly speaking not that you mentioned are they deeply initiator are really like perot lot of ca of cooperation and there have been suspended in the non governmental rome but even now going forward there's a lot of issues that will the ponder pender relationship around to get monsieur rioted and held another thing that will have almost by definition fire from hell and technology barton gelman on to become pawns it's a good cause i'm sorry that i wrote this is as russia and i do wanna get in a little plug those four is a triple a. s where i now we're at now very pleased to work and have to say with us some pride that von treaty and until this week though was our international officer and then there he he worked at her with the cubans on scientific exchange this triple a. s. has a long history of bringing science to international elation this him with respect to butter ran burma or b. m. r. and of right now we're doing here national seismology in a volcano the end i'm back in north korea so i'm to vaughn who in his previous life and then known as the the science adviser to the sector state that i think has done a lot and will do a lot to foster an international scientific cooperation to go to palm city dreaming of phoenix off emphasize friday out well i don't i think that i'll try to cover for comment about thornton and baltic general is that i no it even that bought a parking meters down and clearly understand what's going on a world where time come with the laser technologies that your state of the things the delta no wanna learn and implanted and secondly trying to learn everything all the time i think that they have an obligation in politics and he rather than need visions and i think that having a better educated populist movement in one of the market in the league of their decision to cover all the anglican changed and l. hostage cora question though what about the duty of scientists to teach one eighty d. you when we're in the political climate and scientists is very much about broad flat that's what i meant when i use the word communication earlier 'cause i mean communication in vienna in the in the truest sense of really communicating ideas and teaching of that i think the caller was saying that the scientist should not presume to submit a budget to claim to have a better value judgment so to have a better sense of democratic values than that of an ordinary citizens non scientists citizens i mean i'm but we can teach them the principles as well as the excitement and the beauty of of the science and we can help them understand the that the key the key points to go into it it into the political and social and value judgments that i have no answers someone really only when you talk about global warming or climate change and you went to someone who's not afraid to say you know i had they can make a judgment on this i'm gonna scientists will we have to we have to get the american public away from that point of view of whether it's climate change or vaccination for questions of of communication or teaching biology and high schools that there are worse things that the ordinary folks can understand if the scientists are careful not to try the snow them with terminology in hand and details methodology that really hurt to try to communicate the the essence of science of the practice of science which is a apropos the way of refining our thinking to the to get to progressive leave better and better understanding of the world it's a self correcting system and it's a process would lewis thomas called the shrewdest maneuver that i love that phrase shrewdest maneuver for understanding of the world works it's something that anybody can do up to a point and back and everyone should do and insiders should help them do it and not hide this that this beautiful and powerful methodology behind mess allowed methodological of details and nedved terms that are meant to obscure rather than elucidate public to know where limited time we're home congress a bit of the budget specially for the national science foundation is controlled by congress know i'm in a conservative our political agenda on the committee stefan dennis f. rom are scientists fearful of saying something might offend our committee that is finding it very research well at the point is not to say that in a confrontational way that to this show oh for the evidence weeks of their wealth and say the students as you go forward professionally and if you wanna be on the winning side up follow the evidence because ultimately the evidence trumps ideology certainly an awful lot that goes on on capitol hill right now and i'm no only six months or nine months now hon of capitol hill out of congress of the surname awful lot that goes on there but his ideology and too often role in evidence free way and so it's a it's a challenge for scientists to point out the power of following the evidence of that evaluating the evidence teaching people that ordinary folks can evaluate evidence to you don't have to just threw up your hands and say well i can understand that let's leave that to the scientists have amara players assigned tried it from here on public radio international pictures are under the vanatter the wicked wicked and added that the russian russian thoughtfully know that we're all very dirty and anybody that five hundred but that on richmond and don't admit that in or interface is that the world that one of the interesting things to work for me the way that we if i fit all have to do better job of communicating to the public but also you know i'm in gauging to those in universities in other places maybe or gonna go wanna get their phd and by violence side of the privilege of being didn't he have offspring all but five it to the perfect revealed for fifty seven years and no talking to my father he would often take the heart of the compound for him to keep worthy introductory class is because after class might not be interested in it or they might be to forgive her return but many ways to over time he relied that you professor dale that in many ways he could have asked that and she comfortable little while about that the russians in the beauty and elegance of five and then maybe there would have to beat him in the world in which there are going into even if you were gonna be in that i picked it up one and then maybe pick without so that the evicted because another group that we have with difficult but what do these things that scientists should be pro active in speaking out only here's something matches that is off the wall with him at all about basic being said publicly about this on that what you know this is russia death of course they should come but if if the other person or group is good is wedded to their ideology and then of approaching them confrontational evil in the drive and deeper into their ideology and so that this did tell him that the talmud the teachers that the creative teachers and scientists on the up if they're good can to help people understand that it's the evidence the japanese and english of premature predict mature preconception of the sale of what that would work sure me right now of the probably most ideological debate is about climate change on hand before before at any discussion starts people have already drawn up sides are and they try to say well we have more scientists on our side then you to get whether whichever side that is that as as if this is a vote by scientists know it's about how scientists evaluate the evidence and how you as a informed and concerned citizen who should care about the o. went with your kids are gonna be able to have a decent living standards of the hell you know can evaluate that evidence rather than just to search again and again no which you know which side you're on the path to see you leave it up to be able to do just to look a bit of themselves make their own minds up well but it doesn't work for scientists to try this substitute their understanding for the public understanding first of all it's a it's not wise to them the public know him that i had a rule of thumb often which was never never overestimate the knowledge of the public can never underestimate their wisdom of and then i it's there there are but the a the scientists shouldn't substitute their understanding for the public that but they should help the public to understand what the evidence says no to avoid rub we've run out of that evidence they sat thinking it it was the goal here i i would argue and it's hard to come by hastened his critical thinking about more rostropovich you for as always repugnant avenues to managers manager free of those reins of government we abandon back on the war often been well thanks i'm i'm really delighted to be truthful yes it's a great organization with important work to do one important work under way can have an thought to regain thank you for a second avenue is unable gets more insight into view as you you've now become part of government and learning as accept rushed it was like to be inside celibate the firm you will but with respect to the consented news today thank you so much that's about all we had time we have for this hour b. j. liederman composer theme music that thanks to our production corners of the studios of the city university of new york and i'd go igor facebook page and unlike as their word tweedy law we get side freind to go to our website we have a new we leslie says today putting it together for kids' book signings kids' books if you'd like to work to go look at that could possibly got a juror on have a great weekend my wrists widow in new york