Episode: Show 59 - (Blitz) The Destroyer of Worlds


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Show 59 - (Blitz) The Destroyer of Worlds
What happens if human beings can't handle the power of their own weaponry? This show  examines the dangerous early years of the Nuclear Age and humankind's efforts to avoid self-destruction at the hands of its own creation.

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to show sponsored by all horrible horrible was offering our listeners a free all audio book with a three day trial membership just put on a bulldog come forward slash hardcore history you can download a title for he and start listening that horrible but calm for charge hardcore history the long time since we've done a deluxe edition and as a friend pointed out to me when i explained that the slaves program of ours is going to be six hour long shot we were going to classify as a blitz edition it's a daunting does the wrong way when marcia you know the meaning of the word but i laughed because he's right he started off the psyche of the blood shell was going to be something to help us get more shows out and some nice quick ones right now the word in addition to these great epics it took forever in you have killed us and have killed you listen to them we have things in between and they grew too 'cause i'm obviously no i have a problem i'm addicted to context is one of you said a firm believer in the past is prologue and it does no good natural place to start any story like everything's connected it's arbitrary were you decide to begin things but how why and i shall want to do about cleopatra did stretched into a six part series on rome because were you struck the cleopatra story the reason i chose the topic that are racially chose which is for wimps 'cause i thought artificially constrained to me it's two weeks long and to possibly to really long show on a two week long event well six hours later here we are and it's also blitz edition which now doesn't add anything to do with the length of the show which turned out through evolution of the different kind of show that focuses different things instead of being about people or offense or there rose up specifically usually they focus on idea or question and then in the week history around the question somehow unusually recipe as a slightly less drama than the historical epics but slightly more twist as we call those musings and we're in twilight zone things up so to come with the territory with these programs for what it's worth this could've been a two part are we mourn do that to you to get one long one instead and maybe in an experimental the effort to see what works and in addition to some feedback we got from you folks we try to arbitrarily after the fact my drew wasn't put together this way to separate the shelling sections books book want go to in places where maybe there are natural breaks a stopping point or what have you will see based on your feedback whether you like for promotion art finally this is a very unusual story to tell because unlike most historical details which are about things that happened just about something that didn't happen what almost happened and still could happen the detailed being told from the middle of the story in unfolding series of events that are still ongoing and so while you can feel like you somehow have a bit of the spoiler knowing how this will turn out in the specific case we're talking about here in this pale today because it's an ongoing story there's no guarantee to actually do know the end in that sense the story is not just prolonged for the of the entire region we want to talk about which was the cuban missile crisis it's prologue for our own future potentially strapped in be ready for a six hour blitz edition we collared by the light and airy romantic comedy style title but the destroyer of worlds and the kremlin them neither am i going on a day which will ever walk off the hard core of history at the budget cuts and act any time you hear and analysis of our species swinging our strong or weak points in why we are where we are today you'll hear someone talk about human adaptability want you the fact that we can adapt this is something that spider war intelligence obviously for changing circumstances has helped us overcome all sorts of problems in walls that you might get along the way for civilization old growth to transcend all those boundaries knew we find ourselves in the twenty first entry today alive and thriving but with several major problems in the distance that have the potential to change that fact unless we adopt around them now given our past history you would think that we shown quite the aptitude in adopting but some of these problems may require adaptation beyond which we are capable do you hate in adaptation wall of some point beyond which you can no longer change as a society as a species as human kind there are things that we have gone from time immemorial that fill up your history books from start to finish it would be unimaginable if we didn't today but considering our track record history lies what we ought to lever do them again case in point we currently live in terror of human history that some have referred to as belonging peace which began in nineteen forty five now obviously there is a little wider peace since nineteen forty five is done a lot of conflict people get bombed all the timing human violence is ongoing in continuous whatever first two is conflict between the great powers the kinds of war zhou scene for mesopotamia onward the world wars the napoleonic wars to thirty years war hundred years for the puny quarterly goes on around us and forever on the constitution history right up until about seventy or so years ago of course it was seventy or so years ago nineteen forty five for humankind continuously improving their weapons technology from the stone age forward finally reached a point when they had created a weapons system that might be too destructive to be used the good of mankind has always used their innovative technology to create better weapons and always use those better weapons what does mean that for the norms of human behavior it mankind simply treated the things that we discovered at the end of the second world war two we we've treated every other weapon we've ever created what happened the world today would make she do think though that this is a figure radical question there is no guarantee that the long piece last forever benetton unmentionable to think about what a general war amongst great powers would even look like with the kind of technology we possess today humankind is seventy plus years into an ongoing an army ending experiment can we handle our weapons technology the only way this experiment ever concludes nice if we find out that we can't there's a famous quarter may or may not have been said you never know about these things by the great physicist albert einstein he's supposed to send something to the effect if he doesn't know with what sort of weapons the third world war will be fought with but the one after that we fought with sticks and stones or my favorite phrase is going to do certain point during the long piece which was attributed to airforce general curtis lemay but he swears she never said it was bombing someone back to the stony shore is something like that even possible and what are the odds that we get to find out i think what i find so interesting about both those quotes be einstein warren and alone may warn that is that they both invoke this idea of knocking humanity back on the civilizations scale a few wrongs below where we are now as we all know human history as a describes can lead to stop organ and you have your pops when civilization reaches new levels of sophistication and technological capabilities all that and and you had your gowns and so we're for more people to realize that they were there for people who lived in a time we therefore mayors were more technologically sophisticated than they were we've been kind of on the long stock market ron sims about the renaissance war will you the middle ages haven't had any downturns you know within a thousand or more years stark in prefab napping comfortable you forget that the maybe or variables out there they could to do was what giant plagues the wiped out your core of the population could do back in the old days take for example what both einstein animate were for into nuclear war between the great powers we used to call were war three once upon a time when i was growing up even seemed to be like a dominant team teacher head you walk around with this all the time assorted gamma please over your entire society really the entire world is it didn't matter if you were neutral country during the cold war for all out nuclear exchange happen between united states and its allies in the soviet union and its allies switzerland wasn't escaping on skates righteous 'cause they were neutral we became the first time in human history were you had the potential for single human being we really don't know how these things ron but the potential for single human being to have the power to destroy the tens of millions maybe hundreds of millions of lives with the decision window of minutes by the giving them in order to think of all of the really scary people in human history for power standpoint you're you're genghis khan sure alexander the great je ne major hitler's it doesn't matter minimum had that kind of power the genghis khan decided he was going to destroy your civilization you're in for ten twenty thirty years of war may be specially fewer china if richard nixon in nineteen sixty nine decides to china you destroy a hundred million people in an afternoon no we surrender to the power before it's unique new human experience in you don't get many of those although the people that were the does four hundred forty fifty special human beings they witnessed the birth of the atomic slash nuclear age he lies the minute they saw it then everything it changed to successful testing of an atomic bomb was of course the famous trinity bomb test from july sixteenth nineteen forty five and not only was the weapon successful which was not given it was more powerful the physicist unexpected and many of them if not all of them could look in the future and see but this was a weapon that was only going to grow when powers time went on as powerful as the test the hitches witness was this is scratching the surface of what this new era or provide in terms of weaponry j. robert oppenheimer sometimes called the father of the atomic bomb described the moment that the bomb went off this way in nineteen sixty five in review a program called the decision to drop the bomb quote we knew the world would not be the same her her a few people are sheep eat crow for her wrap up you're the par were that were so oh are terrific brian for him to scripture that are provided us oh and no this kind of persuaded to the progress that if he should do is to him one where are but aren't what they are in power room service now i'm dakota the destroyer of worlds i suppose we are for from where are now i am become death to destroy you are worlds all the old religious texts always have so much power to the language don't on this case it matched with oppenheimer in his fellow scientists created and so on witnessed and that they must've been the whole school mixed emotions for those people the famous manhattan project was a giant endeavor to build the super weapon and some of the greatest minds ian physics and science is related to that from all over the world were brought together massive amounts of resources and manpower and money devoted to the project and all these people sitting on pins and needles during the test because nobody knew officers can work or not your lawyer reputations on the line all sorts of of jaya mon to pressure and tension so when the bomb went off it was a huge sense of relief and triumph but mixed emotions among some of the physicists not all them by the way the people like oppenheimer for sherborne the reason for the mixed emotions was if you had already seen appalachia would become the last year the second world war nineteen forty five had gone who would've thought anyone needed to create a super weapon that was much of an improvement on the technology as it was being unleashed that you're in the war in nineteen forty five cities were being wiped off the map a couple of times a week cities if there's one thing the second world war proved yet again is it doesn't matter how many arms limitation ninety xuan afloat when you're not in total war how much you have these genteel ideas about how weapons would be used in when the willem will be employed you were fighting with everything you have against the other great powers in what's called whole war there is nothing in the arsenal you were not prepared to use people sometimes pulling out poison gas was news to any sort of major way in the second world war but the reason why his cousin was an award winning tool if it had been eddie used it wasn't worth what would happen in return to you something that amounted to essentially a minor irritant in terms of the war effort nuclear weapons would've been a different thing i mean imagine if hitler on the nazis and gotten hold of a nuclear bomb first that's the thought that motivated and number of those physicists involved the manhattan project deny in germany the chance to get nuclear weapons before the allies some of them were less enthused once they realize welders no way to deploy to beat us in this race because them all the sudden you've worked to create a super weapon it you put it in the hands of human beings therein lies both the problem and the challenge and the physicists when they thought to themselves about this new it when they talk about how we're all going to survive the world where the weaponry is as powerful the modern descendants of those weapons were originally used to be an insect world war the physicist talk about us needing to grow as a species or else is sort of which implied and i would suggest that in most of these court you can hear them looking on the bright side or putting the best face on the idea of now what we have the super weapons was at me for mankind oppenheimer himself said quote did not take atomic weapons to make a man want peace but the atomic bomb was the turn of the screw the atomic bomb made the prospect of future war on indoor pole it is let us suppose last few steps to the mountain pass them beyond there is a different country pinnacle in other words we could never quite get that peace thing right until we had the right incentives the fact that will be blown to kingdom come he is the right incentives you had your piece that's putting a good face on oppenheimer wasn't always so positive arthur holly compton also physicist wrote quote it is hard to think of fissionable materials with fashioned into bombs as being the source of happiness however this may be if with such destructive weapons manner to survive they must grow rapidly in human greatness the new level of human understanding is needed the reward for using the adams power toward man's welfare is great and shoe or the punishment for its misuse would seem to be daft and the destruction of the civilization that has been growing for a thousand years these are the alternatives that atomic power as this deal would dangle us present to mankind we're forced to grow into greater manhood and cool the semis way is saying adapt or die it when it comes to altering the modes of human behavior than apart the story justice been the story course not all the physicists always look to the bright side on this question is a famous cool by albert einstein makes him sound like he's a bit of a pessimist when it comes to the question of societies ability to adapt or die in this question he's supposed to said quote be unleashed the power of the adam has changed everything save our modes of thinking and thus we drift towards unparalleled catastrophe and co i'm going into our heads sword of damocles something we were very aware rots when i was a kid we did duck and cover drills for atomic bombs dropping nuclear bombs thermonuclear bomb squad that i'm gonna still pointed at our heads we just don't notice attorney more because so many people have grown up in the shadow of that that they use to it is somebody going into a major and all the time eventually be forget about it if you're born with a gun pointed torture had you even notice it in a way i kind of see the ability to people to forget the pentagon is aimed at them as an evolutionary success tool why should these people be traumatized because of something that happened seventy or so years ago they had the wrong lives around proms aroma world to deal with i mean if we all had to carry that baggage proceed in generations on our backs all the time what were we be dealing with so insensitive stealing mechanism body's healing the same as forgetting it seems to me but the main things working against the idea of this long piece continue indefinitely this we don't remember why we're so important we never have another great power more to begin with the sword of damocles has not fallen in awhile you forget how sharp edges what a horrible massacre for you british philosopher bertrand russell once made it sound like the odds of human beings managing to avoid having to be reminded how sharp the sword of damocles is when it comes to nuclear war seems unlikely he wrote quote you may reasonably expect amanda walk of tight rope safely for ten minutes it would be unreasonable to do so without accident for two hundred years and co if you want to be where minded but what that sword of damocles can do there's only two real world examples that you can go steady that will tell you there's a lot assigned to solve bearing calculations dornin testing but the only thing that really compares if you wanna see not a glimpse into the past of the singular human experience only happen twice to us certain group of human individuals absurd situation but instead you wanna see or a future nuclear attack will look like you have to look at the only to deserve ever been the atomic bombings in hiroshima on august sixth nineteen forty five and one right afterwards a few days later and nagasaki these days on the atomic bombings and discussed it's often in the context of discussing them who were allocated dropping them was it like to use among all i find it the problem with these discussions i've talked about at length in other programs is this idea that the people involved at the time the decision makers had as much for your range of options as people today as you may have when they didn't i mean the idea that president truman the dow is something besides drop the bomb is a little bit out of step with the political realities he was dealing with the time storing gary wills royal ahold ball on the power of the atomic bomb to change everything this to say about what would happen if truman had decided to use the bombs which would use them in another way the other person on the way mentioned in the school is general groves general groves was the military head of the manhattan project in his book balm power restoring jury wolves right court if it became known that the united states has a knockout weapon he did not use the families of many americans killed after the dome of the bomb would be furious the public the press and congress would turn on the president and his advisers there with the cry to impeach president truman and court-martial general groves the administration would be convicted of spending billions of dollars and bringing massive amount to bring powered manpower from other war projects at all for nothing in equal in addition to that and this is often overlooked i think by people who talk about the more wow woody i'm dropping the bomb like the hiroshima and nagasaki weapons on civilians and that's what the japanese civilians were already putting up with on a daily basis what the germans had started in places like rotterdam in nineteen forty in the japanese to donning china before the second world war even officially started been developed into the area weapons we saw from nineteen forty three onward and the word devastating without the nuclear bombs all in march nineteen forty five months before the atomic bombs were dropped tokyo was hit with a fire bombing raid the tilda hundred thousand people and vaporized the seventeen square miles of the capital on by the time the atomic bombs were dropped fifty to sixty square miles of tokyo were gone it unaided and taken off the top priority targeting list some sixty plus other japanese cities had had the same thing to meted out to them it was a logical extension a natural progression if you will of total war it's a dynamic that would've been very difficult if not impossible to stop it's partly the reason why we discussed the matter total war today it's so scary because the idea that human beings could control what's going on is an illusion it has a momentum all its own now there are some things the board different about the atomic bombings in the blow me away to this day what is the instantaneous nature of it it's hard enough you would think to get your mind around the changes that happen to your city during a massive late war bombing raid i mean if you have five hundred were a thousand heavy bombers flying over your city practically we need to to wing tip dropping incendiary in high explosive bombs on your town how hard is that the teacher mind rap when you crawl out of the bomb shelter and see what use to be your seat in ruins and how hard is that the teacher mind around but instead of happening over twenty four thirty six hour time to read it happens in the blink of an eye but to the atomic bomb stated the best relatively short description i've read all of the effect of the two bombs was penned by author susan sheltered in your book about nagasaki she says that within the second of the bomb being dropped the fireball was seven hundred and fifty feet in diameter and the temperature in the fireball was five hundred and forty thousand degrees fahrenheit higher than in the center of the sun she writes she says what the bombs were called blast pressure crushed much of the work on the valley horizontal blast winds tore through the region into one half times the speed of a category five hurricane hall for rising buildings trees plants animals and thousands of men women children in every direction people were blown out of their shelters palaces factories schools and hospital beds catapulted against walls or flatten beneath collapsed buildings those working in the fields riding street cars and standing in line and city rations stations were blown off their feet were hit by plummeting debris and pressed to the scalding earth an iron grates moved twenty eight inches down stream is their buildings began to uploaded patients in hospital staff jumped out of the windows of nagasaki medical college hospital and mobilize high school girls leaped from the third story if she read ahmed elementary school a half mile from the blast and co she and points out that a survivor emphasized it all happened in an instant think of the shock that this engender show an esteemed to beat it to the news in quick succession or really three first if you saw you got the white and if you want shielded from the white somehow be burnt you look kind of like it's been described it from the public a flash bulb going off of an old camera excellent bluish white light there was the blast wave which you could level everything depending on how four wait for me you were when they were the fires it seemed to break out several minutes after the actual blast as both everything we're sort of heated up and it took a minute for dinner they became going to catch alight but then indeed every were want to some of the most harrowing stories come from family members who would be trying to get another family member it was stock in the debris that was all of a sudden every work out as the flames approach and had to leave them in essentially saying goodbye as they watch their child stock in the rubble was the flames approaches it's horrifying stuff and people who were first on the scene in both cities talk about running into in a human zombies if you will silent people burned almost beyond recognition we're like in a trance hiroshima survivor hiroshi should be jamar so all the explosion and ran toward the city center with a bomb and gone off percent court when we had gone about one kilometer we were brought to us can still buy a grotesque group of people the bloodhound in our heads again and i remember that my eyes were drawn on shortly to the scene the people were burned so badly it was hard to distinguish feature for feature and all were blackened is is covered with soot their clothes were in rags many were naked their hands hong lately in front of them the skin of their hands and arms dangled from their fingertips their faces were not the faces of the living and co and on the porn out that he'd seen quite a few normal air raids up close but this was different quote how could i ca bring what i saw before me now it was not just a group of injured people nor was it a procession of the dead are band of ghosts no sound came from these figures they seem to have given up the pity that they engendered is beyond expression the continued to streamed past in deathly quiet how can anyone described them their clothes ripped from them by the force of the explosion their bodies burned by the intense heat so you're completely naked and others had only the shirt started their bodies the injuries to their faces were particularly cruel this gave them with clothes intact i felt like an intruder end quote the general estimates of the casualties from hiroshima bomb for example are between seventy and eighty thousand dead from the fire and explosion more killed later by radiation and probably an equal number of people injured the nagasaki mom numbers were somewhat lower to all sorts of different reasons on the lines the tens of thousands of deaths may be almost a hundred thousand in one city caused by a single bomb as an exponential growth in the power of the weaponry after the first bomb was dropped on hiroshima u. s. president harry truman won on television to try to explain to the american people the rest of the world what this new weapon waters and to us in chile officially bring the rest of the world up to speed that an entirely new camera pentagon the atomic age you sure there are where her herb wherein ross perot where are the ocean and this dreaded usefulness of that that ron has worked hard and when it snows in terms of t. n. t. the japanese pick them are in at pearl harbor they haven't read a minute though and then there's not enough when this morning have now entered a new and revolutionary increase and destruction the south and the growing power of our armed forces in the present from this bear arms are no introduction an been more or our reforms are in development it is an atomic bomb it is a financing of the basic power of the universe the russians as the sun goes as far as the news and it's those who run for the both parties historian michael as sherri susan there were overlapping feelings on the part of the american public to finding out that this new reality existed he writes quote the car cost any of reactions to the bombs advent rose swiftly among americans some stressed pride in american achievement and satisfaction in gaining vengeance against the japanese truman's announcement that the japanese called had been repaid many fold and called for pearl harbor a minority of americans wish the war had gone on longer so more atomic bombs could be used against japan others especially soldiers who assumed that an invasion of japan was the only alternative to the bomb jews welcomed the peace that the bomb at speed on the bomb itself as a tool for enforcing continued peace overlapping those other reactions was another as in responding to the holocaust many americans saw the bomb is evidence of this gorge of modern war in the face of which the wisdom of american use seemed a minor matter now the courting new york herald tribune article from the era which said quote one forgets the effect on japan as one sense is the foundation of one's own universe trembling and cool famed c. b. s. news correspondent edward r. morrow put it this way at the time quo seldom if ever as a war ended leaving the victors was such a sense of uncertainty in the er with such a realization that the futurism skewer and of survival was not assured and co so americans can be glad to the bomb was in their hands he was a clear sense an understanding that this would probably not always remain the case and something like that when you were you standing two oceans attempt to safe from anybody doing any major damage to your country of the sort that other countries were very familiar with during the second world war could set the foundations of your universe trembling and this is we begin to get testified this idea on the part of sama that everything has changed to subhuman species is going to have to shed themselves of habits they had forever and people who view themselves anyway is much more firmly attached to reality who think that we have here is just a natural extension all of technological change working in the benefit of our side the good side president harry truman called the atomic bomb on the greatest thing in the history of the world the following year after the bombs were dropped the war was over you would be famous meeting worthy scientists to headed up the manhattan project meet face to face with the president who dropped his creation twice oppenheimer's a perfect example of the side that feels as though pandora's box has been opened and he feels increasingly responsible for picking the lock on it and it sounds like president truman was caught off guard by oppenheimer's guilt there are many different quarts of this account under all different in your book to win a nuclear war much you cuckoo and daniel axelrod al the story this way oppenheimer and the president and secretary of state park talking cool it the course of the conversation oppenheimer told for a minute mr president i feel i have blood on my hands truman then reached into his top pocket were moved it neatly folded handkerchief on offered it saying would you like to wipe them after oppenheimer last truman turned to dean acheson the undersecretary of state instructed not to bring oppenheimer around anymore and declared a lot on his hands damn it he doesn't have as much blood on his hands as i have you just don't go round belly aching about it and cool the more or read version of the story he's told in jean jacques solomon's science and compete were he said quote oppenheimer when he went in to truman's office with dean acheson said to the latter wringing his hands i am blood on my hands truman later said acheson never bring that talking creeping in here again he did drop the bomb i did that kind of weeping this makes me sick and co truman could dismiss oppenheimer but he was far from the only atomic scientist who was gravely concerned even before the two bombs were used on japan in the second world war more than seventy atomic scientists signed a petition with a budget different things in it but among other concerns would that the bombs were going to be used against a decent people when they see justin using them offshore you're an uninhabited areas truman as we said had a whole bunch of different pressures working on him that the scientist in have working on them once to war was over all of a sudden the outlook could change to could afford to be change your mind and heart blood anymore you're in cold blood and now you're having your hands these new weapons we do with them i control 'em who's in charge of them what if other countries get them to there were in the years nineteen forty five in nineteen forty six a lot of tile the wars in all sorts of questions being debated emina number one for why was who's in charge of atomic weapons the military it seemed like a logical choice their argument was it we're gonna have to use 'em we oughta be in control vermin no we're dealing truman is supposed to send something to the effect of american like some dandy lieutenant colonel decide you want to start an atomic war eventually that power would be rescued into the hands of the civilian authorities in the president particularly he was going to be the one that when the power to decide to push the button as you will be known later destroying gary wills said this is one of the affects the atomic bomb had it changed the american constitutional system almost quietly due to the technological necessities the weapon required he wrote quote lodging the fate of the world in one man with no constitutional check on his actions caused the violin break in our whole governmental system general groves an we're simulate crumb about authority and only for single project presence now have it as part of their permanent assignment this was in effect a quiet revolution it was except under the impression that technology imposed it as a harsh necessity in case a nuclear attack on the united states the president would not have time to consult congress or instruct the public you must respond instantly which means that you must have the whole scientific apparatus for response on constant alert accountable only to him yet on the other hand it a danger to our allies or are necessary assets is posed calling for a nuclear initiative on his part he cannot issue warning ahead of time without alerting the enemy like a president truman was told he could not forewarned japan he must act with alone authority than nature of the presidency he writes was irrevocably altered by this grant of a unique power and co so already the nature of the weapons was changing the way we do things on a national level human united states but the question of how this might change things amish human wide level was being widely debated as well in the years nineteen forty five in nineteen forty six there were some very interesting relatively unique ideas floated in the world of public opinion the government proposals there's intend to know shears an active attempt to try to put the nuclear genie back in the bottle to eliminate atomic weapons from the face of the earth and almost as if to pretend that they had never been discovered and all there are two things to understand before we get into this the first thing is all this is occurring on the body schnur second world war are still warm up and after these terrible earth shattering words you often have a hangover period afterwards were people are on trust and oblique in one of these newsworthy say never again and this can never be allowed to happen again and again a second reward you throw the advent of atomic weapons into the very end there but the definitive extra exclamation point on every game and so with this lose what the pie in the sky rainbows in unicorn should token approach to things realize the deer living at the last time the sword of damocles dropped and they have the justifiable fear of it the other thing to take into account and i'm not a historian cigna come see me picking the right approach is that this can be a legitimate proposal that we're talking about here or this could be for public consumption and behind the scenes reale pollock teak and geopolitical chess matches in business as usual can be going on in october nineteen forty five which is right after the second world war ends president truman gives a speech to congress which kind i'm against it deal with that question about how or we going to control these nuclear weapons now in this new atomic age media's will be speeches were usage of the whole of civilization of rests on international agreements where people run on seeing the use and development of atomic weapons to pretty big deal man he begins work with the heads of canada and the united kingdom come on day after that on formulating some sort of policy one of my new director george reading joseph's church she only essentially says it's the first nuclear nonproliferation agreement ever they send their financier representative again named bernard broke to the brand-new united nations and on june fourteenth nineteen forty six he makes this proposal mean does it with his very dramatic famous language in recess we're here to make a choice between a quick and the dead duck that is our business if we fail that we've damned every man to be the slave of the year it's great speech the supposed to set the apocalyptic tyrone gallbladder were with these weapons out there no conjures up and the discussion talks about him taking all the rain human control him everywhere and everything you would need to build these bombs and put in the central location under an international sort of a security situation where nobody could get their hands on when you could have these weapons anymore now if you're one of these people that thinks in terms a. b. that the physicist for using a couple growling into greatness maybe you could see this as an example of that these are human beings treating this with the respect and rationality the deserves i'm issuing all of the normal power politics one would expect we know five thousand years of human history would lead to believe and truthfully it for me military viewpoint united states offering it to essentially give up their monopoly on atomic weapons anywhere in the history books to somebody do that you know within super weapon we've got the only one award given a british humanitarian cause now here's the catch sort of the united states to be with you this as soon as everyone else had renounced among all the materials had been put into a central location in all of the agreements to make sure no one was cheating and building these weapons on the side were in place in the sooner that was down the u. s. would give up all their weapons to well there was a little counter proposal made by the people that we're going to begin to be the other superpower in the world for this next forty years after this period that we have called in the history books all labeled the cold war and by the way there's a decent number sister rings to believe that the cold war instead of a hot war because of the existence of atomic in later thermonuclear weapons our former wartime allies but we weren't exactly buddy buddy with him before the war the soviet union the seeds of the suspicion it will explode into rabbit animosity in just a few years are already apparent in nineteen forty six of the soviet counterproposal to the united states britain and canada saying let's all just renounced the use of development of these weapons and soon we can prove you've all done that the united states will brothers away in the soviet union sublime to throw years away now since you're the only one that has any m. will figure out how to keep the world from developing anymore after that that's exactly the kind of attitude that anybody studying human history for ever would expect right many out there with a badge just rational absolutely don't get hoodwinked there was a belief the soviet side that with the united states really want to do with his arms control agreement if you will is extended the length of the monopoly but that hat on an atomic weapons which they sure no one else can develop any minute you know will have longer period trying really only ones who have them but began to sort of lay the groundwork for we would see in the future the three dimensional geopolitical chess match with the board itself these booby trapped with nuclear weapons and no one knows where they are on the board so every time anyone conducts a major move everyone chances are the board itself was determined by we're in the armies were when the second world war ended and there are some notable trouble spots the number one geo political trouble spot on this chess board berlin the former german capital the end of the war germany is divided the eastern half years the control of soviet forces the western half under control of the united states france and great britain all four of those powers are sharing jurisdiction an occupation of the former german capital in berlin the problem is is that brilliant he's geographically speaking well within the soviets on control in eastern germany the soviets control all access to the city a couple of roads that the soviets watch over carefully is where all the supplies coming from the west it's an important piece on the chess board but it is a piece from the beginning of the games effectively held hostage the most important piece the soviet union hands on the chess board is the red army the red army is constructed differently even armies in the west will lead to the army that was meant to slug it out with german forces with tanks with heavy artillery is a hammer head sledge hammer them or me it is full of veterans and their commanders are well versed in how to use d. the very large forces that they possessed when the war ends the other powers like united states ingrid bergman quickly star team mobilizing their forces soviets deep demobilize forces to a degree to put the red army stays word is large powerful threatening and the allied forces really have nothing on the ground in terms of an army they can stand against it when asked what the red army would need to advance into unbelievable switzerland one u. s. commander said shoes i mean to believe that he could just advance all the way to the atlantic in nineteen forty six with little to stop it was widespread the chess pieces on the westside growled war compensatory the balanced out the red army to some degree west of the greater forces and naval supremacy and they also have the atomic bomb the problem that the united states found itself in terms of the dilemma is the only thing that they had the pain you could belong to read armies march to the sea if it came to that we're atomic weapons it may have been early on a too valuable a piece to give up of course but remember the red army was not sitting on the edge of soviet territory defending the motherland they were perched basically along the farthest extent that they had taken over in wartime the more occupying on willing populations of people who before the war were living in their own countries places like poland and rumania and hungary in the baltic states and a lot of other places we're now occupied and we're being incorporated slowly but surely into the communist bloc this became a bone of contention and something that was kept good relations from breaking out probably in any case the other issues that divided the two sides after the war was ideological the magic commit the most surprising in the twentieth century such an ideological century anyway in nineteen thirty two and three giant different ideological block sort of competing with each other fascism communism in the democratic free market west the war socially limited the big fascist powers leaving a dynamic that is to storing wayne dyer points out diplomats from hundreds of years ago would've understood they would've predicted a war between the soviet union in the united states based on power politics alone i have to bear this in mind because growing up one idea the idea communism versus democracy was such a huge part of the equation but it's hard to rule that out are minimized that but as dire points out a lot like the role religion played in the wars of the sixteenth and seventeenth century it's important and it makes a big difference but if you took that out of the equation you probably would have the same competition anyway he writes quote the united states in the soviet union have no common border are no claims on each other's territory no history of national animosity there not even serious rivals for trader resources but their post war confrontation was perfectly predictable and widely predicted as soon as the probable outcome of world war two became clearer around nineteen forty three he said called our greatest they are in the late twentieth century is to overestimate our distance and are different from the past we believe that the present round of competition between the great powers is different from all the others in history that it is invested the special significance because of its ideological dimension and because of the appalling consequences if you would lead to war as all such other competitions of eventually them in the past in court anything goes on the list that both sides can use to point to the other and sang will look at all these provocative things you've donna and then he says quote each side has an ideologically watertight explanation for why the adversary behaves with such persisted wickedness and aggression but none of the post nineteen forty five developments would seem surprising to us seventeenth century spanish or autumn and diplomat neither communism he writes more liberal democracy would mean anything to him rather than as useful label for the players but he would have no trouble understanding why the victorious alliance so quickly fall apart they almost always do after victory because the winners of the biggest players left on the board hands they automatically become the greatest potential threats to each other's power in equal now mind you disagree with wind tires excellent point about power politics yet at the same time as someone groping that they're also it's hard to discount what the drug war ended and the stain here in the united states for communism the impact that have had all for all four events here's a. foreign affairs magazine review of stephen would feel spoke to call further cold war but that was an interesting description that sort of spring and the within the breast and then so the weirdness and you look back on it now decades later the entire affair so is about the book court a lively and well documented account of how the cold war both produced them was sustained by super patriotism intolerance and suspicion and how these pathologies infected all aspects of american life in the nineteen fifties entertainment churches schools older readers will remember him still be amazed younger ones will find as the readable introduction to weigh bizarre aspect of the american past nicole and you know what looking back on it there was something bizarre about inviting niemann existing autonomy was at its most bizarre the fifties and nineteen fifties the same time i said this before i wish that there was this potion or sharon that you can drink would allow you for a moment to feel what the people living in that area felt about this ideology that to many of them seemed a little better than what hitler and the third reich was offering and who's desire as they saw it to extinguish freedom all over the world was about the most evil thing they could think about when you were fighting the most evil thing you can think of there's not a whole lot of things you're not willing to use to win case in point atomic weapons there's another element is involved in the story that contributes to how bizarre it looks as we look back on it now it's something that for a great many people was an article of faith at the time period which we know to be false because well what they were worried about happening never happened but they don't have that luxury and every error has its conventional wisdom was that it has to use in fact during out how to make decisions we are the strapped by our role as they were by their shit but a great many people on it's hard to quantify exactly how many but expanded the entire spectrum from world leaders in decision makers to the intellectuals down to the farmers and i'm on top operators of hardware stores in middle america it was this idea that war with the soviet union wasn't just the possibility but they do was an eventual inevitability and that color sure thinking in ways but if you don't believe that or gift as we do we know that that wasn't what was going to happen it looks insane cash you consider things they don't make sense outside of that context for example to force going happen eventually more than five thousand years acumen political and military history tell you it's better if it happens that time and a place of your own choosing and also when you were damages are maximized and your adversaries are minimized since the end of the second world war no greater disparity in weapons technology has ever existed the money united states have monopoly on atomic weapons nor should be pointed out that there were those even at the end of the second world war happened famously and legendary believe the american general has suggested that since you know we are in our stuff all over there everything was mobilized everything was about either but we are fight the war with russia right now but he was a notoriously gong all in the general buddy and stone cold pacifists will be tempted by this temporary window of opportunity that exists if the one the atomic power on the planet wanted to your killed the other potential won by strangling it in the cradle no one knew how long the window of opportunity was going to last expert opinions deferred president truman is supposed to vast j. robert oppenheimer how long he thought the monopoly with us when you think the soviet told that the bomb he supposed to burp lied don't know to which truman is supposed to have responded i know you never but sherman dean explains thinking on that whether or not he thought perhaps but the new collective minds of mankind would come to their senses an international grievance would it's this problem or because he believed were were three was imminent in the soviet union would be wiped off the map and your problem would disappear in a giant mushroom cloud the military and the manhattan project general groves items can be two decades before the soviets got the bomb but concerned scientists and even pacifists we're worried enough to consider the potential value of abo preventative nuclear war bertrand russell was jailed for opposing the first world war is a pacifist wrote you're right after the second world war quote russia is sure show learn how to make it the atomic bomb i think stalin has inherited hitler's ambition for world dictatorship one must expect the war between us say in u. s. s. r. which would begin with the total destruction of london i think the war will last thirty years and legal world without civilized people from which everything will have to be built afresh process taking say five hundred years there is one thing and won only which could save the world and that is a thing which i should not dream of advocating it is that america should make war on russia during the next two years and establish a world empire by means of the atomic bomb this will not be down he writes the thing gives a speech we watch right after that time to the british house of lords and corners by the way from prisoners to lamar by william pounced on wonderful book on one of the most famous scientists associated with atomic power jon bon women unequaled troxel is telling the house of lords his nightmare scenario that would turn a pacifist into somebody awarded a preventative nuclear war to be stored in it on his advice he told the house of lords court as i go about the street and see st paul's the british museum the houses of parliament and the other monuments of our civilization in my mind's eye by c. n. nightmare vision of those buildings as heaps of rubble with corpses all around them and co when russell lose one of the more intelligent people of the century theorizes that the next war which she sees is imminent we'll leave people on the civilized and it's civilization will have to be rebuilt and then when it will take five hundred years to get back to where we are now look think of how apocalyptic that is not human kind obviously faces these sorts of threats periodically in fact we still faces one and all we don't think about it much i mean every thing for example from global warming to some media were heading your plan everything like that the constitutes a great potential threat and and the dynamics of each one is difference or reaction is different climate change for example because need to be figured out yet mostly things like that of an observation and science it becomes a in arguing run for people with vested interest these people have different situation going on the dynamics run atomic weapons had just been proven and see and basically the attitude was if you don't end up looking like a hiroshima and nagasaki and you're some pictures by the way if you didn't see it we have to do something and doing something was a conundrum that these people found themselves a lot more trapped by we would find ourselves trapped if we invented atomic weapons yesterday it is one of those little vagaries of history is noted a lot of these things happen that time period were ever was still all traumatized and stressed not when you really want handed the new powerful super weapon over to human beings let's let the human beings few little bit and if you discovered atomic bomb she yesterday in a laboratory we were talking about it today how different my radar approach to them be no please return these days could be reducing them we better think about them but no nobody's ready to kill each other we're not sitting on the knife such attention and bertrand russell gives that speech remember what's going on in this guy's memory banks remember that life experience that he's forming his decision making with which isn't the best wine i think a history teacher forgave me says remember with these people and see their life experiences determine how only formulate but the best reaction in any given situation of the approach bertrand russell was born into seventy two into a completely different world under reasonable isn't world he was born into anymore to to work world wars in history distorted twice the first was so bad that they had this entire period afterwards were human kind said never again i'm not the first time nor the last time and build up a whole structures and treaties and arrangements and deals and everything the league of nations it just one example to see that this never happened indiana instead within twenty years he didn't it was worse than the first one but at the end it ended with atomic weaponry so if you're russell in nineteen forty five a month or two of the war ended you are suffering from historical posttraumatic stress disorder and so is everyone around you to win you wonder how atomic bombs might be used your thinking they're probably could be used like the last two things i saw happened within living memory and can be a lot messier than any of that the other thing that these people are going on that i have to continually remind myself up in it would be again so different if we develop these weapons yesterday it is that the two sides of the shall we call the tip of the spear in the cold war the u. s. s. r. the soviet union in the united states both entered the second world war as the result of the devastating surprise attack or bro so german surprise attack on the soviet union in nineteen forty one in december nineteen for what course pearl harbor imagine the next devastating surprise attack happening with atomic or nuclear weapons and then remembered these people had already seen that movie just a few years ago the other thing that they were absolutely certain that they had learned from the second world war in the time leading up to it had to do with appeasement about how few had to be young people and all of these elements combine to create a dynamic we're everyone was on the hair trigger lurked and now they have these weapons that were so dangers on one side and this was key in nineteen forty six the northern ron mazzoli union did not leave as quickly as they were supposed to president truman is supposed to have threatened to use an atomic bomb on them none seem pretty darn happy when they got out real fast and other words the idea that we have the super weapon you can impose your will and other people he is really really seductive truman secretary of war henry stimson explain to the damage the key atomic bomb gave the president in the united states and the west in poker terms he said that when it comes to world power the atomic bomb was the equivalent of the wheel straight flush that is a horrid geopolitical handed to avoid flying isn't it you would people from earlier eras had done if they had nuclear weapons and a monopoly on them julius caesar alexander the great appointed chinese emperors japanese demayo sore heck hitler here's fifty atomic bombs but don't use them if oppenheimer in those physicist we're talking about human beings having to rise to another kind of level of evolution in wardrobe for destroying themselves you can see why because actually imagining them in the hands of the most of history's great figures in the past basilica prelude to a nightmare it occurs to me maybe that question to be phrased little differently in exam and also i mean if the physicist we're talking about in new level of human hunters standing being necessary to live with the soul of technology maybe it's not fair to imagine atomic weapons in the hands of some of the most sociopath think leaders in history how would human kind in general the past dealt with something like this is perhaps a fair comparison he could go back to my famous time machine a very large version of it and bring back nuclear weapons and some technicians to set them up an initial them what button to push everything you think of people from the bronze age or the higher need shit nuke stay around this area if you give edible nuclear weapons explain what they do set them up from heading about ninety if you push the straw or bro more bee gone will be walking zombies with the skin hanging often are thousands been all legacy push into the sea say maybe you should think about this it's interesting to wonder but the development over time of human epochal systems but also something based on it if you wanna suggest the species learning how about the idea the matching annabelle with that nuclear weapon having gotten a chance to already lived through things like the first and second world war rushed to have experienced for don and stalin bride and gas an atomic bombs used in warfare and then hand in the weapon and say maybe now you understand and mestizo and damocles will leave do you still want nuke roma a tiny what's fascinating to me in the game is part human condition i'm not sure you can get around it he's at this moment to maybe this is the chemist of the physicist we're talking also at this moment when it's all on this like doomsday clock knife edge in nineteen forty seven scientists will inaugurate the doomsday clock because it's shown how close we are to destruction because of atomic weaponry fall back as a matter how close it is dole is striking midnight we're still playing politics in the world's democracies because that's how democracies work to go back and read the political pressure on a guy like truman that the opposition party uses against him and get the typical political dynamics are trying to appeal to rule blowers and swing states map and it's insane how would the changes the dynamic that you would really we should win converts to the normal mud and coldly and dispassionately would allow one ounce of concern about the politics of it and think about this issue that the devil's us right and maybe all humankind maybe all succeeding generations if you want to get to the illogical and degree of hyperbole but no which dilemma call the president soft on communism because it's been a person the congressional budget of some sort new york and we're drawing close to take in the sun about it how was canada marker see while ago i think and i don't think it is an unusual statement to make it all if you look a u. s. history there are certain time period where the country fundamentally change is this it's almost like a body part breaks and we will replace him with something else does reasonably similar if you or for yourself and dress up but has been altered irrevocably carries on recognizable to previous generations the founding of this country in the change from the confederation to the constitution to one of 'em in my opinion the civil war and reconstructions another one in everybody's opinion but if you look at the period and then people would have different dates on this from about nineteen forty six to one nineteen fifty two you see the united states government transformed restoring gary wills only described and talking about how the presidency in the power or one person to decide to go to war and he made when you what i mean it's changed that aspect of presidential power but then he goes on the list things that people who know american history all know anyway all the famous internationally decisions and things like the marshall plan in the truman doctrine in all these different things that when taken as a whole when you look at them on the list it's amazing how many happen in the space of a few years create the national security state you should know my own biases before i go forward because i do have them in this case and it's worth factoring i mean to you you're thinking when you hear me by talk a lot about politics in my opinion the united states made the wrong course change during this time period and became a different country a country much less connected to the one americans believe that they have won the stanley what i like to call the myths of america and the constitution has a lay person would understand it i think september eleventh mum on lower the taxes another woody's treating you as history and i think you see similar dynamic then as well in neither case by the way do i hold the decision makers accountable for having made the decisions at the time i think it was inevitable for example that any u. s. administration given what's going on with freaked out and overreacted after nine leaven in the same is true industry we're talking about here between nineteen forty six nineteen fifty two it is the leader generations afterwards that i'm upset with four not fixing it but the problem with historical memories of trends go on long enough whole generations are born never knowing what needs to be fixed because they never lived in the time before the change occurred if you want to say today need to go back and fix the things that we did between nineteen forty six in nineteen fifty two the damn car mountains were over reactions how the heck you get back that far and the more critical question for person like me is what we like it better this way so please no more biases at the outset but this new national security set up we developed from about forty six nineteen forty six to nineteen fifty two to two in the cia was created the emissary the entire structure of government that we know today that the taxi clinton and and spies on the enemy and keeps us safe in yum yum it's our world now and this is what happened it seems to run counter to the very things that some of those scientists were saying you're going to have to do if we're going to avoid world war three were they called free new level of human understanding whatever that is and i'll pretend i understand exactly what the physicist want to said things like this but he got the opposite with the national security state whereas some of these famous possesses some of the most famous we're saying in nineteen forty five in nineteen forty six that we should tell the soviets about the bomb right when we started making it or that we should give them the nuclear secrets after the war think of how crazy that sounds to us today what are modern mentality we should just give the generous all the nuclear bomb secrets that sounds insane desmond and senate insane to honor the military cross the second world war we executed people in us history for turning over nuclear secrets is some over physicist were suggesting that that that's the sort of level of understanding it will take us to win the war we can ease tensions so we don't have war war three that's a pretty hard evolutionary tool have a fight against because she had to come badger on fear and i think has said before the ritual of those evolutionary development that is probably saved more lives in human history than anything else i can think of normally it's a very good thing to have read sabre toothed tiger can set you back in caveman times ron or kill it or whatever united and protector softer freed from sabre to tiger taxable up fences and your thing is not a bad condition a helpful security but the very thing that always help with security right and not just your existence of civilization can you turn that evolutionary tool off if that's the only way to survive as i tried to play with the counter factual to know what is scenarios in this period imagining it turning out differently than it did i can't think of any good sound like they would be rationally imaginable we take for example the military in the situation what are they supposed to do add to the second world war but can they all have obama to the united states or to the other side in this growing distrust it will turn into the cold war frida soviet union to you just pretending that the united states doesn't have an atomic bomb how's that work like we said it's for the president of the united states almost too good of a hand to whizzes did least threatening to apply mean that's just politics right that's just foreign policy the way it's always been handled and if you look at this from a strictly an age old power politics viewpoint historian michael howard has agreed joe just setting up the way the military saw the steinman then we're speaking of them as a whole rather than some of the individuals and even perhaps some of the various services more on a minute you saw these things because that's what they're paid to do our world quo when confrontation developed between the soviet union and the west shortly after the ending of the second world war the military on both sides foresaw businesses usual the soviets plan to advance their western glazes to the atlantic to deny to the americans the use of air bases in western europe all the americans will get least to retain bases in the british isles spain and the middle east from which to bombard the soviet union and then in due course in quotes here liberate europe for a second time he continues whoa peoples of europe knew nothing of these plans ambush own little enthusiasm for them if they had next time we're market french prime minister who did know about them too is american colleagues you'll be liberating a corpse and co the problem you face in nineteen forty six nineteen forty seven if you're the united states military or harry truman in maybe you've already threatened to to play that royal straight for shawna soviets in northern iran wants the problem you have if you have very few of these bombs although no one knows that you have no good way to deliver them the next couple of years the military and harry truman and the government of the united states will focus on a system to deliver armageddon if that's what's needed it's official name was to strategic air command and was part of this brand new branch of the united states military known as the air force which used to be a part of the army and it was part of an entire reorganization it was also part of this post secular war transform into purity changed u. s. foreign policy in the whole design of government the u. department of defense the new pentagon was all part of this and strategic air command job if called upon to do it was to destroy the soviet union's major cities with atomic weapons and in the process killed tens of millions of people the mind sort of real stars but when you think of how quickly we went from that well tell us today even looks like rainbows and unicorn to place of writer craft legislation to win the world disgorge of atomic weaponry two we urine have two years later when the president has to deal with the approval of the air force plans for winning more war three uninvolved has the key part of the strategy something commonly referred to is the atomic blitzkrieg or atomic blips trying to explain all the various things that going to why these decisions were made is complicated and what the main reasons why is how we should all this as we said before of the reality is complicated about to tell you that the social cultural and economic individual forces in a thousand things working on us in every direction all the time let's bring much how it's always been she can always see the sources so when you go back to like ancient egypt new book it would historians write about that they don't have access to all the information that would flush out the reality of those people the way we feel it now consequently history seems much more simple as that minor strains brother raul interwoven around events are not visible back then but to close you get to now the more visible those minor threads the calm and it's impossible to quantify the importance of this right over that train for example as i said earlier he would love to think the situation is important potentially is nuclear in a global nuclear war that we would have philosopher king sitting in quiet room is discussing with the most intelligent physicist and an ethical people in the world how we deal with this situation but instead the normal thing is it impacts human kind reward your two despite the stakes we said politics in a democracy a little while ago but it's more than just politics how about such and all concerns as budgetary questions and inter service rivalry dangerous too for example i think you could make a pretty good argument a lot of people path the number one reason you have an atomic with style strategy as the plan two women were war three should come during this time period as more to do with budgetary restraints than anything else when you had begun wish the jaeger philosopher kings and everything in the back room not worry about anything done all it baba ticks and budgets and what have you bought a reality in derby which is why this whole argument but having to change humanity in order to survive in a post atomic world is so difficult as einstein said he hadn't changed everything bar mode of thinking but it's hard to take your moods of thinking i mean think about harry truman after the war perry drummond gonna cut the budget because it's spending a fortune this was just in the big is worn history it was too in the wind shear funded can't stay at those levels right can't live that those levels of your truman had to cut the military but what he figures it could be seventy percent of the war while still having to be able to fight world war three should it come up and as we said a lot of people thought it was imminent honey do that trimming brought in business people you know and up here this is bullshit from college the jewish citizens or popcorn or is asian consolidation it's no reason for all those redundancy first of all is just combine all the services and have nowhere for snow may be no war me just will gamble military defense structure you disorder or the time in this country curtain other countries to the services hate that because they all our pride neuro services sometimes a little bit of antipathy toward the other ones what's more you had a whole new branch of the service out there the u. s. air force to just been created and all of them competing four and economic pie that was going to be caught by seventy percent you might imagine in any country in any time period ever one of the knives came out and the backbiting started in the services had to get their essentially argue for why they were relevant i'm why they matter them why they should get larger in a piece of the economic defense pie that was the air force that ended up winning the argument they went to the president and he basically said if i can simplify this is only one branch of service to win were were three for you and it's os these were the ones who will send fleets of bombers over to the soviet union am bomb them with atomic bombs bunk mo this was a very contentious pure u. s. defense history again it's part of an entire area with a big change occurred between forty six and fifty two but the services his summer these cases were fighting for the very existence in the second defense secretary gannon was a johnson was totally on board with us on what the rubble barger branches of the service idea supposed to sow discord there is no reason for having a navy and marine corps general and bradley tells me that amphibious operations are a thing of the past will never have any more insidious operations but does away with the marine corps and the air force to do anything the navy to do so but does away with the navy and corp he didn't goes on to cancel this giant super carrier the navy was building an issue might imagine things just go ballistic it leads to something that's considered to be want more unusual in serious because there has him in a lot of them were vaults by a branch of the service in american history so often referred to as a mutiny in some speed at you would be very strange me because usually it's the mutiny us from the lower levels of the navy to the higher levels this involve the highest levels of the navy who came to the defense of the service by arguing for all sorts of things that you would understand that the others try to make themselves will grow and of course the baby can do this and no one else can the unusual argument that they also brought to the table and they brought out in congressional hearings in no way that we think about mr shocking was the question to you when strategy of atomic bombs on moral grounds in something known as the revolt of the admiral's in congressional testimony the budget war heroes from the second were warning guys like chester nimitz unnerving came out annie and arguing essentially that we all like your plan to just go in drop atomic bombs on cities and that's what you're gonna win the tour were war but the same time defending their own branch of the service the decried the entire idea as an american in immoral the zurich schlosser writing commanding control quote a congressional hearing is in october nineteen forty nine won a high ranking admiral after remember the damage the atomic what's arguing that the bombing of soviet cities would be not only few child body immoral they advocated precision tactical bombing of soviet troops and supply lines using planes from american aircraft carriers admiral william f. palsy compare the air force's new bomb or to the siege weapons wants you to destroy medieval castles and towns quote i don't believe in mass killings of non combatants and accord admiral arthur debbie red ford testified called cold war of annihilation might bring a pyrrhic military victory but it would be politically and economically senseless and cruel the harshest criticism of the air force came from rear admiral were off a austin who would two were the burned out cities of japan after the war he described the atomic bullets as quote random mass slaughter of men women and children and cool the whole idea he said it was ruthless and barbaric and contrary to american values quote we must ensure that our military techniques do not stripped us of self respect and co once again hard to quantify and really know much of the navy's opposition to use of atomic bombs as the war winning when you gracious strategy on with because their service didn't have any and how much of it was based on moral grounds the compliance with the notably muted when some marines could carry nuclear weapons should be noted later on but the admiral's bring up the key moral question the people wrestle with four decades as a matter of fact a still russia with this aeronautical going to fight an atomic her nuclear war their way to bomb cities and civilians with atomic weapons have it still square with the american values the values of the freedom of unwashed is what unknown back then in general and they're fighting the bad guy as i said that you will read the literature that time it is clear this might as well be now the third reich again joseph stalin miners will be hitler bob little known fact here in the united states but the soviet union will mellow out a bit after stalin goes away but this is the hardcore error still he is considered to be a ruthless guy and communism appears to be on the move but if you kill tens of millions of civilians using atomic bomb us in order to thwart the evils of a totalitarian superpower how much evil do you get splashed on you in the process what if you strike first but the second thing that came into play even pacifist bertrand russell for little why was thinking that the united states should strike first to the bomb out of the hands of guys like joseph stalin interesting to think about water history books would look like today and how you would treat the subject of the preventative nuclear war at the united states acted on that kind of premise back in the day when bertrand russell was making those speeches by the way i'm all for mr bertram russell you would change his opinion later romans nonetheless i can imagine the history books treating all but nicely today to try to explain away all those deaths to keep the soviet union for getting the atomic weapon one is reminded of friedrich meters line about be careful when fighting monsters which you yourself to knock the kama monster to toughen ethical dilemma isn't it and for my own stamp on a fine history fascinating because if you think about the ethical dilemma maybe of putting a hand gun that's loaded into the hands of a five year old boy that the one i feel like this period is here maybe the most dangerous period in atomic history because as to what we're still trying to figure out now if if oppenheimer for him we have to grow into a new hire or version of ourselves to survive this is the period like adolescence can we do it before we shoot something and to the period where the tension is mounting at such a pace the michael shinri the historian says that the drumbeat of criticism initiatives was relentless during this time period you go look at a time lord minutes one thing after another bingham bam bam bam and remember those of the things that make it into the history books that totally discount what the people that iraq reading your morning newspaper on a day to day basis with had to contend with all the rumors and lies and anthrax in the maneuvers and things that might happen but never turned out to be true the sweat that out on a daily basis so if you're talking about these things that sound her worth it to us today that anyone would even consider it you'll understand a trip of people thought that we're facing the fact that we know that there were snipers will come true can't be allowed to blind us from the position that the foam selves and remember we had the luxury of knowing how things turn out the changes everything does not go makes it very difficult to put ourselves back in those shoes and i want to answer roma that big instantly allowed to go my god i'm so scared of the carnage and take over the world no one was brought up the nineteen seventies there was something known as the domino theory of communism was this idea that it spreads from one country to another and nebulous was one false it's abort the next one over there and we're supposed to explain this exponential growth of a of communism in the world and why you needed to be concerned about all these little countries you'd say oh who cares about the zlata we play typical communists my exactly like to run the center of the world you know what what is the matter is generally don't understand it's abdominal fat they will sobriquet country next door in the cabinet the foothold in the seventies when a grown-up you are beginning to think of that was crazy although the worst all the proponents but to reuse notebooks a lot of whack because in the nineteen seventies when i was good things of stabilized it was a theory developed by people that were watching reality unfold back in the error we're talking about now or it didn't look like dominoes were falling in that you're falling quickly which the couple of different kinds of covert and overworked for example at the beginning of nineteen forty eight to czechoslovakia government is overthrown in a coup when they become part of the communist bloc one of their famous ministers found at the bottom of amal tie story apartment did in an apparent suicide out his window which many people believe now was nothing but russian agents toss him over the side that that began to give everything so the very us by underhanded clandestine in of the enemy within us on the field and communism was different and fighting now to use 'em you know to worry about nazis was an intellectual contagion very much we're as communism or something that could appeal to downtrodden cables everywhere including your own countries so who said you had a new enemy to deal with potentially some of your own people would change things to you as everyone knows couple rents gears if nothing else the mccarthy era and some legitimate problems with in a people who were spying because they had an intellectual affinity for the beliefs of the soviet union my good letters from communists all the time to you which country coming isn't such a terrible light all we can go on as the examples we have if they don't match the potential of the classroom theory as well i can't help but i can only tell you what the josef stalin regime was like cannibalism pretty and if you want one of a promise of the west has i'm going to agree with you on all of them but they're still no comparison in this case the soviets just war ruthless in the united states and others argued that you had to meet that kind of ruthlessness with a similar sense of resolve in some of this result required the ability to push back in places a couple months into nineteen forty eight most of stalin does something that tests de roos although the west if you will in no way that is so challenging it's like calling your bluff in that high stakes poker game but she'll taku and daniel are so rod in their book a woman nuclear war say that by this time period harry truman is already threatened the soviets four times with a nuclear bombing maybe blocks but ever came to a head because the soviets gave in on june twenty fourth nineteen forty eight the pretty darn good geopolitical chess player himself joseph stalin makes a move that basically called the entire nuclear blocks of the west and shuts down all the rail lines in the land routes that we're supplying west berlin the place occupied by the french the british many americans that they shared with the soviets and that was deeply inside rest of soviet eastern germany at the time only allowed to exist because stalin allowed food and everything to go through on june twenty fourth nineteen forty eight he stop allowing that and basically look to the united states in the rest of the world in his own geo political way said jack now you may be thinking to yourself that we are all for playing the poker and chess analogies little bit because they are things by the way they can always be applied to diplomacy and forth there isn't we all politically to know which compare those things to chess matches someone up but nothing also fits the model as the cold war and in fact in due time an alternative approach to oppenheimer in the physicist ideally were remembered rosa species runner with each other out we begin to be developed long lines of things that we call today game theory and we're already underway in the minds of people like john boy no one on others developing ways to see if we could use our intelligence i'm not drastically lose the game if humans had to adapt or die into their new weapons technology was the only kind of adaptations was going to work in evolutionary wanna or if that was impossible did humankind have a backup plan for living with the sword technology in this case with stalin and setting foreign policy sort of charms is are you really going to store were war three over this all i did was say you could no longer have access to a city deeply behind the border are in our territory with at least we're we're in charge of defending our zone our sphere of influence we haven't attacked anybody you'd be attacking us first what we're looking into you do mister we're or three over this hand if you do not only in a world war startle wolf star with wiping are all of your forces are in berlin at all an appetizer for world war three if you will honey responded that an especially in this period where once again it's hard to get into the minds of these people but everything you read talks about how much both sides in this cold war thought that they learned from war war two in the lead up to that the whole idea of appeasement he's ever present in the discussions right it would prove the point forever in maniacal aggressive dictator everywhere right they're all like it worse and everything that was applied it applies to everything else in innocent of the josef stalin you cannot show weakness so do you start world war three over there as well the wheels were in motion and yuri soon the solution the ground apparently by a local commander who started to have food lo mein liberally and has apparently stalled wasn't going to shoot down airplanes augustus on pretty quickly and very quickly it harry truman saw that as the life preserver thrown at him right we're choices start nuclear war or what stalin get away with it what about we'll start nuclear war either we just are supplying the city now were you gonna do your move she others game thing works so well in the situation i'm not mr nuclear war first what will be known as the berlin airlift on the time it's finished it'll be ongoing for more than a year the united states and the other western allies will fly in one point five million pounds of a whole fuel and other necessary products for everyone west berlin with nearly two hundred thousand flights into the city it's an amazing achievement there was an easy out toward war war three but worth noting that during the crisis especially in july nineteen forty eight discussions and we'll discussions were had amongst the united states the president is adviser's about whether or not you store nuclear war over this and a fascinating to go back and look at you begin to see these big divide between those who think the nuclear weapons or the special class of weapon the chuah street totally differently than any weapon that's ever been in that endeavor and those who think it's just a deal bomb for the purposes of our story here which is more about humanity adapting to woods the weapons capabilities the nineteen forty nine to forty nine berlin airlift crisis is key because it's the first time that you get the rubber meets the road practical questions that hadn't really your risen to this point it's almost like he have to have the crisis before people laugh to sit down and room together and debate question the show kebab long time ago like what can we really accomplish with these weapons what can you do with them not everyone understood that you can reckon with them because it marie done this before by the way it's a strategy known as escalation dominance and you don't need atomic or nuclear weapons for that strategy it's always been used actually just worked very well atomic weaponry but it's basically the idea that you're willing to take into the next level you really wanna fight over this luke yep and the other side as ned nuclear weapons well that's the end of that game right the problem is is that that's a bluff came up what these people are asking now having played the bluff game three or four times already since the second world war is where for forced to play this hand was a mean and and the really practical reality stings like to we have the planes in place tommy bombs do we have warned that hard at it we target those places and destroy them does that get us what we want the shooter can things that had been sort of compartmentalize to talk about in various branches of government the berlin airlift crisis brings all these people together with the president to have really fundamental discussions of the sort that had happened before you could see these broad differences of opinion the military minute by a large or under the impression that we go we're war three were just been a huge the new weapons to the way we used the old ones as some of the other people for example the head of the atomic energy commission gave the blue bell he's part of a group of people that are counseling truman's key moment during the berlin airlift crisis not to use the nuclear weapons the july nineteen forty eight meeting between truman and his theories advice jerseys talk about in michio keiko and doctor ross vulcan they ride court in his journal that day a lump all the atomic energy commission headed world to truman quote greeted us rather solemnly he looked worn and gramm none of the job reality that he sometimes exhibit i rather think it was on the most important meetings i've ever attended and coat the authors continue quote at the meeting of some like lump all expressed reservations about using nuclear weapons secretary royal however spoke for the hard liners when he said quote we've been spending ninety eight percent of all the money for atomic energy for weapons now if we are going to use them that doesn't make any sense and co but even those who were trying to figure rod maybe the you can gish use these weapons as a bloc have a problem themselves they want to deter or with the stings and something strategy was to become known as deterrence their problem is that for that to work the other side needs to think that you want use the weapons see you can publicly come out there and say these are the most awful things in the world we would never use these weapons because then you can threaten to use him anymore than they have no utility if you wanna be's people who believes that you know really use the new law by the hand but joe threatened with 'em one more for the threat to work all have to believe you'll go there was one more juror was reading cornered out or he said the bombs to terrible use under the circumstances it has no deterrent value so even if you will those people that would never foresee the use of atomic weapons you can't say that 'cause then there are no good at all this becomes the main conundrum of using the bomb but during this and she read there's one main part the conundrum that we understand today that's missing because of world war three breaks out in response to some event connected to the berlin airlift in nineteen forty eight only one side is going to have atomic weaponry used on them if you're the american public and you're sweating out these increasing tensions you can at least come for yourself in the idea that in the era of atomic war in nineteen forty eight you were still safe for being duped does your government is the only woman has the weapons in nineteen forty nine that will change and that will change everything park two for the destroyer of worlds ninety four in arms a terrible year in terms of the cold war the only thing that keeps it from being save the most terrible urine all world history in terms of danger our technological limitations give nineteen forty nine the same technology we had in nineteen sixty nine and i think it is the worst europe for most dangerous la things happen for in on the make people very edgy me for example after real long running civil war with an intermission during the second world war the chinese communist finally gained victory in their civil war for the nationalist nationalist go over to taiwan that the communist declare a communist country and all of sudden soviet russia the largest land power in the world in terms of actual geographic side is has added to a country roughly the size of the united states geographically come with the largest population the world economy isn't just took in the twenty five percent the world's population and added that to which ranks but tell a country like the launch date or you can you assume the situation to zero sum game no son communism just till china and we lost it be a big political debate and you got stage for a long time which party in the white house lost china has a china was ours to lose nineteen forty one is also the nato was formed in an attempt to begin to cobble together a european defense strategy from a whole budget country still trying to recover from the damage of cycling or remember only one country came out of the second world war major ones anyway any better off than they went into it i was the united states everybody else little covering certain countries like the soviet union firm really grievous wounds and that's partly the reason why the estimates may be on how long it would take the soviets to get their own atomic bomb or so off and you look so quickly the military head of the manhattan project in our growth didn't think that the soviet to get it for twenty years the god sixteen years sooner than he thought they'd get it now there's no doubt that espionage played a key role in helping that doesn't change the fact that it took the soviets about the same amount of time it took united states the u. k. in the canadians manhattan project to build their mom on august twenty ninth nineteen forty nine in the central asian deserts the first so be it a bomb test goes off the united states finds out for mom monitoring plane which is sort of keeping track of radioactivity joseph stalin not the pentagon to come on amount anything about anything the u. s. a. nobody was going to so after debating whether or not they should tell the people of the world that the soviets were atomic power now on one of truman's adviser's specifically mentioning the panic after the war of the world's broadcast my orson welles concern that the whole thing my cause a panic but in an attempt to sort of get ahead of the soviet today we're going to announce it and carpet proper spin on it truman came forward and basically said soviets have added missis white so important to control these kinds of weapons das and that tiny little period the beginning of the atomic in nuclear age we're atomic power rested in the hands of nearly a single country it's somewhat amazing given the state of human affairs the wind its monopoly one country didn't use that weapon to dominate the world so maybe one could suggest then in ethical sense it showed human progress but perhaps bertrand russell swan about how long you could expect a man to walk across that tightrope would say hold on they haven't had to do this for very long first round goes to man's ethical an evolutionary growth because we avoided bombing the soviet union one only one country and the bombs but not two countries have the bomb how's that gonna change the dynamic will that take stuff your level and exponentially confounded because now all the sudden united states has to worry about having the same thing happened with the place italy belgium and germany had to worry about forever but the u. s. isn't going to get invaded in the old fashioned sense what's the difference is eventually some other power it just ignore the fact you have a couple of oceans protecting you and turn your studies into smoking heaps of rubble the united states had faced anything comparable to this as the british burned the capitol building in the war of eighteen twelve psychologically it would affect any power the united states though with this extra sense of invulnerability it's always had was in a unique place in its history now the other side become the nuclear power does a couple of things first of all it closes the circle in terms of creating the dynamic that we have lived with ever since it's dynamic of both sides being able to do incredible amount of damage to each other at least theoretically very different dynamic that only one side being able to do that the other thing that happens in the geo political sense is the era of the united states having that mastercard as the circuitry defense and said the royal straight flush that's over with the window of opportunity is another adviser had said this period when the u. s. was the only nuclear powered that's over with to you unpredictably the question of how our responded ran the gamut we've even sober humanitarian type scientists trying to figure out if i was so in the balance of rational thought of swallow tortilla idea of well now that they are nuclear power we should note tomorrow we can in his book prisoner's dilemma author william poundstone corpse harry truman science adviser a guy named william golden globe and the letter where he tried to imagine how a man for more or is my duty geopolitical situation that when somebody you didn't have any human skin in the game just for purely dispassionate outside observers viewpoint and he wrote about the soviets having the bomb now on the way that the u. s. in the rush to the white should respond to he said quote this brings up the matter of immediate you shore threat of use of our weapons let us not delude ourselves to bring about a truly international control agreement with russia we would have to use them the consequences would be dreadful indeed even though i assume that the russians have so few a bombs now that they could do little or no damage to the u. s. say even if they could put them on target in theory we should issue an ultimatum i'm used the bombs against russia now for from here on it we inevitably lose ground and this is true no matter what how much greater rate we produce no matter how much more potent weapons for once russia is in a position to put a bombs on our cities no matter how inefficient those bombs maybe an hour few in number she's in a position to do was unspeakable injury that we can retaliate hundred fold or wipe out every russian will not repair the damage so what good it though all moral case can be made by the disinterested man for mars for our shooting at once and co even goes on to say however we won't do would of course no matter what the alternative because the public would never support it the last comedies fastening again 'cause you're gay and tempted to see the some sort of an ethical evolutionary change and would the ancient bronze age civilizations of hesitated a minute until now of course if one wanted to look at it in a more cynical way maybe you just saying no one wants to be living on what will turn into a nuclear battlefield is such a war breaks out so when your country talks about starting one being the first to introduce such a weapon i mean maybe there's just a survival instinct it kicks in and maybe the people from the bronze age would've understood that perfectly we come to one of the war those moments know forget the road decision between maybe which you could call doing things the way we always have for all the right reasons connecting away that would solidify your expectations given human history that is what you do now we do if you'd united states you just had your atomic monopoly destroyed human nature all human history would say you try to go get another monopoly you continue work were you develop the next system you you regained dominance is superiority in that field nobody wants to be the one and the last person to invent a machine gun or something like that could lose a war that one the last nation again in the air force read but if you're already struggling to travesty dropout handle you know not having catastrophe strike in the world of atomic weapons how sword against the grain from an einstein or oppenheimer viewpoint is it's on to talk about making the super super weapon the super or was actually the nickname for the next level in human weaponry development that was already theorized in the work of rory be gone on where can it would make the atomic bombs of hiroshima and nagasaki look like nothing will weapons they require at a bomb like the bomb used at hiroshima nagasaki as a primer for its main explosion a guy named edward ellers most famous for association with what will be the weapon that makes atomic bombs obsolete a guy like j. robert oppenheimer who won a truman's aides said was too much of a poet and not enough of a heart and realist but the kind of obama the galley j. robert oppenheimer would say is is farther than we should go we should no longer develop more powerful weapons than the ones we have but think about how much that runs against the grain of human behavior could we if faced with extinction decide to have weapons research and development we will never discover anything more powerful and deadly been this have you shown off information like that he keep someone else from developing it the city age old problem that humanity's always had to deal with it right after the soviets demonstrate that they too were now atomic power harry truman esther russell once again with all sorts of forces and uncertainties and he's in a brand new pair of human history with no road map this is a guy by the way who'd been vice president for like five minutes when franklin roosevelt died and who had cried saying he wasn't up to the job he's dropped to the nuclear weapons on japan ended the second world war in effect and now he's called upon that to face these kind of pressures it's crazy one can only whether you the key to good job or not have some sympathy for the for the habit dasher from missouri which is what this guy was it the artillery captain from the first world war truman is not one of the great minds of history one of the markets are really is tightly years he's just a pretty normal human being put in the situation really really is making decisions about whether or not we can build stuff to destroy the world what whether or not that's a good decision after the soviets blow up their first they bombed truman asks for some help in some advisers he gets the wise men together not exactly philosopher king's body is the physicists who invented the first weapon a bunch of them anyway led by the guy truman's kato was too much of a poet j. robert oppenheimer obviously cooling text from the bottom but he does so maybe there's a point there nonetheless put him in a room in october nineteen forty nine tissue we developed the next level of weaponry about atomic weapons and is it possible and if we did it would help and do we need a manhattan program for the next super weapon one that makes recurrence of the weapon obsolete on the physicist within a talk about the same nishida were port and a report that is issa said don't build this weapon this woman by the way is something today we call a thermonuclear bomb thermo nuclear warhead hydrogen bomb thousands of times more powerful than the bombs dropped on hiroshima and nagasaki and described by nuclear expert josephs riccio me as the equivalent of bringing a liberal piece of the sun down the aunt or f. there he is no operate limit to their power core in the report oppenheimer and friends essentially now five years after the atomic bomb was dropped have a chance to see our humanity's dealing with it and they decided maybe in reading between the lines you that we have evolved enough yet something like a hydrogen bomb the report says quote we believe the super mom should never be produced mankind be far better off not to have a demonstration of the feasibility of such a weapon until the present climate of world opinion changes and co the code for inter we evolve more they also seem to be suggesting that this is a chance to provide an example on how we can break the patterns of the past because we have to to survive the right court in determining not to proceed to develop the super mama we see a unique opportunity of providing by example some limitations on the totality of war and thus limiting of the year and a rousing the hopes of mankind and co here's a poet oppenheimer is rainbow in accords coming out again the people around truman might say the great enrico fermi and another physicist and an even more apocalyptic response they can they didn't think that the one that i just read you goes far enough they wrote this about court in its entirety does it a shocking they're basically saying you were inventing weapons they can now do the equivalent of creating a shiny and natural catastrophes if you could turn on for example the ability to causing massive tsunami or something for me in his colleague right court a decision on the proposal for them all out effort be undertaken for the development of the super cannot in our opinion be separated from considerations a broad national policy the weapon like the super is only an advantage which energy releases from one hundred to one thousand times greater than that of ordinary atomic bombs the area of destruction therefore would run from a hundred and fifty two approximately a thousand square miles or more necessarily such a weapon goes far beyond any military objective and enters the range of very great natural catastrophes by its very nature they cannot be confined to a military objective becomes a weapon which in practical effect is almost lot of genocide is clear that the use of such a weapon cannot be justified on any ethical grounded which gives a human being a certain individuality and dignity even if he happens to be your president of an enemy country it is evident to us that this would be the view of peoples in other countries it's use wood but the united states in a bad moral position relative to the peoples of the world any post war situation resulting from such a weapon would leave on result of both enmities for generations undesirable peace cannot come from such an inhuman application of force the post war problems would dwarf the problems which confirmed to suppress it and that's pretty our shame you can save yourself well you know some of these physicist live in their own gone real world david belong to or from the atomic energy commission what the people who pushed back against the idea of using atomic bombs during the berlin airlift were in his diary about the way the government was leaning any was not in the direction the physicist want when he said quote more and better bombs where will this lead is difficult to see we keep saying that we have no other course we should say is we're not bright enough to see any other corps and co so you run into the people to give you the old mackey of deleon in reality which is we've got to build these bombs 'cause the other side could build them do in the last thing you wanna do is be the last person on the next level of weaponry which makes total sense given our history with the physicists are telling us is that everything you learned in your history everything's been in a pasted on your dna from thousands of years of human evolution subsidies first crop up is obsolete and you can either change that standard template know by which you gauge what you should do in any given situation we can find yourself a victim of all weapon that makes an atomic bomb on look like a conventional bomb truman as usual had many more pressures weighing on him david little liz donnelly all sir records as stated by senator bryan mcmahon the describes or the mood to the american people would have if they found out that the russians had h. bomb but the united states didn't he said quote why the president who didn't approve going ahead on the h. bomb all out would be hanged from a lamppost if the russians should get it done we hadn't end quote how hard argue without logic isn't it the same logic we operate with today it's hard not to be struck here isn't it you consider the strange divide between the level of the intelligence of the people they were put together to create the super weapons versus the level of intelligence of the people whose decision it will be whether or not to use them the political class in these democracies republics for example but let's remember as that statement by then senator points out how heavily influenced they are by public opinion if we'll them on knife edge over how these weapons are used in how wise we can be about them do you really want that decision to vaulting down to the average joe and jane liable the counter proposal by the way by physicist like oppenheimer over why you don't need to build the super weapon is that you've reached a maximum threshold when it comes to the power of these weapons to do anything they offer the idea chicken just use atomic bomb was to deter anyone who's got any weapon greater cushy don't need anything bigger than that they may say will drop of hydrogen bomb under city that's a thousand times more powerful than your puny a bomb yes but the puny a bomb still basically takes out the city betrayed the city's for cities and what oppenheimer in the guys were saying is that what she loses city in the steel which are treating c. b. for study you have the deterrent value need to stop somebody else from attacking you with any kind of weapon this is the beginning of the ideas of nuclear deterrents you begin to see the introduction into this debate of the civilian cos of intellectuals to become sort of the alternative to the rainbow one unicorn power which like oppenheimer sir approach when they want to become different people that we've always been the other side of that colonies these people who would say when i can it change it's too hard to change it and the system is flexible enough even with we wanted to change we're gonna have to learn how to live with these weapons as intelligently as we can and it's civilian thinkers started to meet with each other starting in about nineteen forty five right after the first to mom for property and the second reward and began to call last in groups and beating sydney too perceived place like deal for example these experts were comparable wide range of disciplines when social scientists political scientist physicist of course but also people like civilian leaders of agencies don't david wilhelm call from the atomic energy commission was there and they would debate these fundamental questions the simply had to be answered in this new era when first of all could use these weapons if you used 'em up that make ground warned and tanks and armies obsolete what we're war three be like all kinds of fundamental questions don't approximate for these people is that all of this stuff he's part of what you normally considered to be the response ability and the prerogative of the military leaders you'll tell the general hot use his weapon is that's not your business you tell me where to go or to do in terms winning i'll take care of it but now the weapons were so powerful that many of the big thing preserve their argued that simply using them had huge political implications something you could not delegate to a general on the ground who might think he needed atomic weapons to blow up the entrenchment ahmed enemy hey old not realizing that he could lose the entire war global public opinion by doing so right now the words the use of this most powerful weapon had to be in the hands of the supreme leader whomever that might be well in nineteen fifty that still harry truman by the wind in january nineteen fifty after reading the report firm oppenheimer and his fellow scientists and all build the super bomb truman decides to build a super bomb the reasons given and the people around him move given that the reason they all were balls around the same thing again easily understandable stop he can't be outgunned truman even mention the psychology of opinion if you believe the idea that oppenheimer floating you can just use a bombs against their h. bombs the psychological effect on the american people was an acceptable so it was a standard understandable response they're gonna get it so we have to have it and you know the weaken can reliably taxed to see if this is something that to were such things collective human dna him into the species as a whole but it's in there somewhere can you imagine humankind so i know to a more powerful weapon system i'm in i'm sure this group from the planet as every peaceful with the people not bore the world they would say no but as a whole when you think of the powers of the very height of important can you imagine and saying you know yes we know about a much bigger and more powerful weapon we have we're okay what'll we currently possess will need at your weapon it i mean if the aliens landed tomorrow and we found out the biggest weapon they had destroy the galaxy in the blink of an audit was the ex fourteen you're gonna be people on this planet right away the singer we have to have the next forty the walk all over us if we don't have an even if we don't are you should even if i might destroy the galaxy as long as we have one they can't just roll it get into account i would become a player we will not be subject escalation dominance psychologically it's important for those aliens to the way of next fourteen two here's the thing now the truman in illustration at the time that he approves going ahead with this hydrogen bomb the hasn't figured out how to use the great power of the atomic bomb bestowed furniture which we do with that 'cause it's so powerful and yet no remover ahead with something that hundreds of times more powerful than that truman has taken the pistol out of the hands of the five you're old was trying to figure what to do that ended in a machine gun instead he still doesn't know what to do with it but at least it's a lot more powerful and that's kind of where we are because in this period between nineteen forty five in nineteen fifty what's this to your radical period punctuated by lots of scarce in your mrs inflection all that people are trying to figure rob what you can really do with these things in oppenheimer has spoken said you don't mean anything bigger than an atomic bomb the problem is during this time to read yours no chance to do what will later be called counterforce really counterforce mean choosing your nuclear weapons against the enemies military targets at this stage of development you were lucky use them against anything use it against big things cities with people these are studied destroying weapons and that's what you use them for in this period the question of the more political more interesting during the street is does that get us what we want i mean if the thought is that you're going to kill millions and millions of people the wind up with an outcome when the end that was better than what you had before and of course you're really important question during the entire period the cold war even up to now his toes the other side really think you do that remember there are really during this period two kinds of people when it comes to nuclear weapons the kind with him she can use these things new plan to and the kind you can she can use them but even tell us people think that they still make up a part of which you can use to threaten other people mean the best use of this tool as many theories stirrings period talk about it anyway was that it created something or you could tell someone else to do that or else or you don't do that or else you'll get new recruited to serve all times after the second were worn before nineteen fifty but in april nineteen fifty truman is presented with a document will become more ghost important in yet very little known actually documents american history to call fantasy sixty eight annie did a lot of things including you pushed forward some of the hydrogen bomb development stuff what hennessy sixty eight to eighteen in paragraph after paragraph is you spot the holes in this entire defense strategy the fact that you basically we're relying on a threat and if the threat were called you either had to nuke the other side until millions of people or back down bulk of their powers could test that they could try to find the point to meet the threshold of when you eat you seize weapons what is somebody disorders gobbled up their neighbor over the winter time when the newcombe allies were worried about this too because they were starting to think that maybe the united states would be willing to use nuclear weapons for themselves in their own protection but if it was somebody in europe that they said they protect baby they don't new guinea wanted any to kill millions and millions and millions of russians if the russians invade west germany doctor nothing would make the west germans nervous for example one of the things hennessy sixty eight said is that the risks that they were running right now with their strategy of look everything or nothing was quote the risk was having no better choice than to capitulate or precipitate a global war and call in other words they had no flexibility on what was nukes are not done and so tennessee sixty eight victims is documented advocated huge increase back to spending on conventional weapons tanks planes in naval ships all in a dish the but doesn't back off the nuclear stuffed in there in other words were as before the budgetary choice was between this or that now which does and that and everything more is that on the document that begins the giant military buildup in the u. s. in the role of soda policeman of the free world that we still live with today now initially truman look at this thing and we are told by the history books but this was gonna be horribly expensive interim intended to be fiscally conservative they should put on hold on don't want little bit and then in june the on the twenty fifth actually nineteen fifty north korean communist invaded south korea what that meant was that all the sudden and moving very quickly hard to get your mind around and react and debate and deliberate what initially seemed like he was too much money to spend for truman and probably congress in the american people the victims of an orderly virtual tripling of u. s. defense expenditures see madame no-brainer now that all the sudden for all intents and purposes as far as anyone could tell us quickly moving events the fuse for the third war war seemed to have been lit the korean war is calm to be known is so fascinating and so many things unfold with that that have nothing to do with the great powers to make wonderful discussion all by itself you can really was just going off into too many tangent and try to stay on on the focus which is that it's a completely different sort of challenge then trying to live with these amazingly powerful weapons in the temptation and the yearning uncertainty that the bubbling to the table this new thing that in peacetime you will all the threats in the scariest an entirely different matter to try to deal with the temptation and feared an uncertainty involving them up in wartime and let's also remember the very other human elements involved or operating slip underneath the scenes here there are a lot of people who was invested reputations and viewpoint all sorts of things into the efficacy of these weapons of what you can do with them what's up again changers they are so now we were gonna find out you know whether they were right we're all these pronouncements and positions taken in peace time the play out the way the advocates and opponents thought they were going to play out now that we have a real live fire situation going on if there was ever a conflict that would tempt the leader to use atomic weapons the korean war seems tailor made for it because eventually it will settle down to an almost first world war style very little movement kinder stalemate but initially edi is an absolute barber all we're the momentum swings wildly from side to side and yours crises after crises in each side gets into their own trouble initially the north korean communist forces with tanks and people that had fought in the chinese civil war just warm down start smashing the south korean forces driving himself towards the water none is going to be a dunkirk with no place to go if you catch me me me they outnumber them they have armor an as a whole bush reasons why it happened they're korea had been just a beginning the idea of independence down after being occupied by japan and at the end of the second world war the soviets the occupied the top half of the country basically the west to the bottom half of the country they put in government that they were in a friendly with the condoms when the north and the non tom swan the south and in kind of sort of them look elsewhere walpole berlin thing is going on in a bigger fish to fry it as a matter second korean war breaks out as a large contingent of people the things that this is just a diversionary faint cheryl joe's down the those little moving korea the entire free world you move their military forces there we get bogged down and then he invaded europe by the people fought back the historian john was gathers makes a very interesting point saying that the f. this head minute world war two style attack with tanks in the whole thing going over the border basically in the open know and over challenge to the post war right here that we're in a cluttered a phantom has never be another hitler and aggressive wars never gonna win again gaddis says of this attack him in more like the way to be enemies were very good and attacking fifteen years after this with inward they would send in guerrillas in it would be subversive and slalom infiltration in which you never know what the decision points or that the americans probably would've gotten involved in all but this was a challenge as somebody he had to stand up to agree least that's the way it looked to truman who was just in the major stages of codified one of the policy he's motion only for instigating it's a big call containment there were several different views on how you handled the spread of communism from the domino effect the one that was eventually part of an see sixty eight was called containment will this burning for their there were other more aggressive wants like roll back or another one that it liberation was with some of the far right hawks won it containment is what sort of became the policy of the united states in the basket and your policy even if you thought that judgment jordan give mommy and agent help certain government now you have a situation on your hands were cheating at the next june south korea was gonna disappear into the mud be a fait accompli was another matter what you said that the one gonna be two koreas anymore you were gonna be able to put humpty dumpty back together again you know in like three days the capital south korea falls what you gonna do there were so many of the things we have to remember on going at this time the importance of which is faded in the seven years and remember this is five years after the second world war these people had began to think that they had made war illegal for lack of a better word they had once again built structures what they thought were new and improved structures over the last world war structures league of nations proved to be annoyed toothless tiger chanel we had a new and improved version recall the united nations and this is a real test for the united nations truman involved them you basically right away they start debating what to do and as fate would have ended never went this way again the soviet union happen to be boycotting e. u. when at the time so they were not there now as we all know today we would've expected to happen given our understanding of history is that when this question of which we all do about this korean war thing that came to the u. when the soviet union as friends and backers and fellow communist with the north koreans would use their veto which several members of the u. n. or on the security council permanently wage and out of the toll that they can use and often do you deserve the ingham would be trouble whole thing and everything would've been modeled on there wouldn't be bidding unified effort but because they happen to be boycotting at the time they couldn't do that in the u. s. with a bunch of other nations that agreement to get into wincing as south korea quickly and the u. s. and other countries came really a united nations or me at least in terms of the marketing in to united nations flag flew on some of these tanks never been quite this way again the implication was almost a mule don't have the global world army they could go in and do things like this in addition truman put in charge one of the heroes of the second world war douglas macarthur right the guy who so famously in the pacific semi shall return and then she comes back to you live have returned and he's he's eisenhower to mississippi story dramatics for years the subordinate to arthur joe mccarthy is put in charge these forces they rushed over from japan these are bonded guys when sydney japan join themselves for a few years they're not exactly crack combat troops when they get there and there's not many of them in the air force comes in the navy get involved and very quickly you find out that that then secretary louis eight johnson the stubble every dollar amphibious operations indonesian navy was i was wrong that you can be because when the korean war broke out within five days the united states is trying to be there on the ground say south korea from falling and they just don't have what they need straight up and they get in there and our looks like they're gonna get defeated with the south koreans it's just a terrible situation becomes the first moment we're you think i do not have some really good tactical nuclear weapons during this period can see some places we just want to use him but they all have that right now but over and over again situation will change eventually the reinforces build up to the u. n. forces can start pushing back in creating the larger perimeter and then make our three maybe the greatest move of his per we're lanza named hideous operation king your face lucy johnson and english on my high into the north koreans lines cuts them off begins to be a push back cabell towards north korea so we go on from defending south korea turnout moving in the new baby north korea and there were warnings be careful you're approaching shine on they might not like that even though make arthur is supposedly finding chinese dead people when he goes over in bulk to which should be north korean get people he tells president truman or a chinese are getting involved as secretly later on you find out he's not scared of 'em anyway to the bone of the logistics inwardly and do a lot of income happened and he continues to move forces close to their line and then they whack him would like to order turn a thousand guys oh the war changes again now the chinese have entered the conflict think of how quickly this escalated from me north koreans south korean affair to something we you now have the united states of america and a multitude of its western allies to great powers of the west facing off against red china on the asian mainland backed by the soviet union no we started this on june twenty fifth nineteen fifty within a couple of days the u. s. in the western fall by september european shon landings in the whole complex of the war changes by late october early november the chinese ran it but not officially and that becomes part of where you begin to see this evolving into a very polished second world war form of form that is largely dictated the existence impossible use of nuclear weapons this is when it becomes apparent that to keep this from becoming world war three all the major powers that would be needed to fight war war three are doing their best to create some plausible deniability to the nobody has to admit this is world war three one of the shooting to restock years that you don't have nuclear weapons in the world during this time period the is a decent chance does does turn into world war three which you can watch so stalin in the soviet union mom were in red china and harry truman all bending over backwards to be able to tell the world know this is war in truman's case famously when the fighting breaks out in its worst says the second war war pretty hard to deny what's going on here is a war under porsches to the president he says president truman used this war we're war and truman famous as written out we are not a war and so the pork how rich was something like so so what is this is what the police action and truman famously says something to be effective in a yacht about sums up and forever after it's been called the police action as gold the proper label on the stain that puts a limit on it it's not just about marketing manager they were real changes i mean if truman calls does anything decide to war does he have to go to congress and ask them to declare war this is another thing that publisher modern historians issue justin was seen by the people around truman is kind of a quaint relic of a pre nuclear age his secretary stating people like that not huge fans of no more people being in on the decision making process and truman was able to put troops in harm's way without ever having to ask anyone else's permission mean mr gary will said the decision to intervene inquiry was made monks truman and a tiny group of advisers around himself the report arrest the koresh about or we war because normally you would know there'd be a big declaration congress would do it in the country be all in its wrap up of the war for the goose everything in their power they demolished the other side they come home but can you do that in the nuclear age the reason the korean war is germane to the story is because well here's the way historian john was getting six point to quote the outbreak of fighting in korea in june nineteen fifty provided the first hard evidence the korean war demonstrated how awkward it would be to use atomic bombs even in the most desperate military circumstances from this perspective they prove to be irrelevant to the outcome of that conflict are from another perspective they were critical importance for korea determine how hot wars during the cold war were to be fought the rule quickly became that neither the united states nor the soviet union would cut from the other directly or use all available force each would seek instead to confines such confrontation with in the theaters in which they have originated this pattern of tacit cooperation amongst better antagonists could hardly have emerged had not been for the existence on both sides of nuclear weapons and co in order to give them some plausible deniability and basically say we're not at war with you now did you have a chinese american war going on it now in the chinese labeled there are hundreds of thousands of chinese army troops volunteers as though you almost don't even know what happened waters hundreds of thousands of our people in korea fighting bullhorn new and eventually when the soviet union who kind of deliberately doesn't get involved and they can stay away from this instead of its began be careful 'cause the soviet union and china have ham signed a pact the defense pact so if it looks like china is attacked automatically the united states is no war with disobedient into which the soviet union doesn't want either so they're not getting directly involved is staying as far ways they can win eventually almost as their shamed into what they have to send pilots to help they made the pilots unit they paid the planes like they're just they're chinese volunteer planes be given fake names they tell us they're captured in the u. so you're russian living in china they don't all fly over water 'cause you like it and the whole thing is a disguise now stop fooling any of the other countries this is essentially to be able to say that this is not the kind of war we need to use nuclear weapons although the temptations keep calm and i mean they'll be applied for example when paul leventhal isn't soldiers most of them american in sub freezing temperatures around and around the chosen reservoir and there are people that will go to president truman insanity mr president would like to use atomic bombs the key trench ramon myself the truman is the first human being to ever have that sort of question put to him to have that kind of response ability dropped in his lap when you get fake understanding the ramifications 'cause your return it twice but that's a heck of a thing to put on human being in tremendous as a dangerous cried we got the job you basically said i'm not that i'm a big enough man for another big enough man forty guineas the first man in human history at this kind of response ability in his lap there was a nineteen fifty two article in fortune magazine were right or like in hadley donovan did something which i think is really cool were he zoomed out sort of an imagined it how harry truman's how or at this stage in world history we've been viewed and we've been looking at it from five hundred years ago were some reason we're treating it like we retrieved the ocean carolyn june empire of the byzantine empire something in your history book truckers we tend to treat modern history wholly different look at church wholly different lands and donovan's article put this in terms of we could recognizably talking about events from a thousand years ago when he writes cool a california name robert carney now commands the greatest striking power in the mediterranean world the seat of the classic empires of alexander and caesar rygel steps and go carney direct all nato forces in southern europe and the u. s. sixth fleet in northern and western europe the old realms of charlemagne in napoleon extraordinary military and political influence is held by a kansas man dwight david eisenhower in korea the bridge and battlefield of half a dozen oriental imperialism is the largest western army ever lodged on the asiatic mainland is led by matthew ridgway from virginia all of these officers are answerable of course he writes to win native of independence missouri if the president of the u. s. were ever tempted to think of themselves as employer hair read the first there is no evidence that he has been beaten look about the world with considerable personal satisfaction and co and yet several times in the swore he would be asked to unleash the sort of hell with none of the people who ran those earlier ramp hires could ever dream of being able to inflict man it's not worthy then he turned them down essentially every time this is kind of agreed interesting psychological question to which there is no clear answer but there are lots of speculation scissors as to why truman doesn't drop this bomb if it's going to help the bodies jam mandela political pressure coming why doesn't he do it what this becomes another place in history where it depends on who you believe now as a fan of history i simply read all these different lawns and i'd try to pick the ones in my head which i think of the most no logical or make the most sense but oftentimes ill they are kind of have a good point to mean in how to win in nuclear war which you cancun daniel arcs rod amongst other people suggest that the reason truman didn't use nuclear weapons in korea was because he didn't have any extras to our people who've subscribe to that he read the reason isn't more what'll it simply that the surplus doesn't exist and if this really is a faint the soviet union's just try to get all our attention over asian imogen attacking your bitter battle won all three hundred performer atomic bombs in your stock or so that one attitude out there does another view that they're particularly on suited to this kind of warfare were you have these individual chinese hasn't taken country men carrying all they need on their backs over the hills and now scattered numbers mean nuclear weapons that we set up for that there's another school of thought that your freedom using them in having them not be as scary as everyone thinks they might be maybe hiroshima and nagasaki were the best place to demonstrate him in terms of scaring people the most affected conditions you could use them under a baby anything else might be under wyoming so exterior feed organs and there's all sorts of theories they can help but notice a certain pattern and that's that if you look at the first three u. s. presidents that had to grapple with this amazing amount of power they have often had to do so at odds with their military advisers on several occasions truman eisenhower kennedy they all will have the advisors and we think you should use these things and they will all say no it's fascinating to think about that and again one is forced to confront our past and asked if this is how we would be hey you didn't earlier generations or earlier human error is in the same circumstance or whether or not this is indicative of some club of evolution or growth and if he's growth is it ethical growth of these people becoming more ethical than the people of the past received intellectual growth are we becoming intelligent enough to manage these unbelievably sophisticated and dangerous weapons mike hanna to that but i can say one thing for sure it's on a collision course new donor to be a genius to see that with the principal way that the experts fight wars during this period remembered truman is trying to adapt to this new atomic age he's got generals in charge of forces fighting complicated wars on the nuclear booby trapped geopolitical chess board we're going the eighteen hundred's make arthur does not wanna were really about which chess pieces she wants to use on this nuclear booby trapped chess board or what's where she came in to move to the shoe stabbing a free hand and he in truman clash over what he can do truman is creating something that will be known as limited war whether he knows it or not during this time period the general that he personally put in charge of all these forces in the matches american forces in the australians are structures breaks in is a mall time ashley u. n. force headed up by this guy truman put into place the guy who has famously said it will during this entire crisis in war there is no substitute for victory what was he was widely thought that douglas macarthur wanted the power to use atomic weapons himself against his adversaries in korea and the truman would lead him but not a modern history seem to think so they point out that became more use nuclear weapons but he did would be able to fight the war in korea the same way he for every other conventional war with the standards in the attitude towards victory it was accustomed to using the problem was as if he did those things he would cause the third world war break out most likely if you're truman you're playing this knife age dangerous game between way too much of a gamble macarthur didn't want any rules on what he couldn't do to fight a war when and when he said the sun not publicly that he disagreed with the present policy to the media he had to go and you know a once again we think about the bravery involved here which room in a tremendous and particularly but his poll numbers were much lower than douglas macarthur is douglas macarthur was a hero to a lot of people and orlandi will be just plain didn't like harry truman after he fires macarthur the carter comes home and a half a million people come out to give them the ticker tape parade most of the newspapers come out for mc are adding it if you're harry truman you just made the biggest negative move of your entire presidency and it took an amazing amman and got a new named than you paid forever for it all the costume of the term it was the right decision he can say in hindsight because it macarthur had been allowed to do what he wanted after world war had broken out the imaginative from our history us today now we have to do is look at what the plans were right or the assumptions of what the plans were in some cases western military leaders assumed the red army would simply the launch attacks across from their bases in eastern europe into western europe and roll all the way to the atlantic think about the destruction that that entails right there u. s. plans involve the use of this most dangerous of all human weapons ever invented no not a nuclear bomb because remember that the compound it in a weapons system is still had to be able to deliver the bomb this was the prom the soviets had during history they may have had like ten maybe twenty of these bombs they didn't have an adequate delivery system of they had no strategic air force in had waited by honey bunny at their work and arnot but wasn't real threat to real threat was that the red army which is clash all opposition all the way to the ocean the u. s. however would unleash strategic air command and when a bevy of different plans of them on paper and variance of every plan deposit shakedown off tackle molly's kinds of things but what he's playing as having common was a massive atomic bullets using about two thirds of the atomic weapons in the stockpile right away the same day actually in most cases and in keeping about a third in reserve to go we bomb places that needed three bombing during the jury were talking about here if something like two hundred bombs a. b. three hundred bottoms maybe on twenty thirty forty soviet cities about to be cities to be bombed multiple times it's millions and millions of people though anyway you look at it can you wonder what the history books would look like today with the photos on account of the survivors oh let's just say thirty five russian cities after they had been bombed on the same day in the world's first atomic war like your shimon or nagasaki on steroids i guess and not often felt good especially my own people americans but but maybe lot of other people too don't look carefully enough what these weapons do because there are overtones that people tend to push away because we're human united states we'll talk to people about the atomic bombings of japan this defensiveness and often comes up because they assume you're trying to keep social guilt on them and they will get defensive and point out the things the japanese did or or many of the other element involved in what the conversation about atomic a nuclear bomb if you should break down towards it keeps us to examine the most important part of the story go not the past part thicket be changed but the future part it needs to be understood we're talking about doing things that might lead to the kind of outcomes really sheena couple times before those outcomes are so important i'm struck on the fact that even people who were living through them at the time in trying to survive we realize that they were essentially guinea pigs of the new age and try to write things down so we could benefit from it today but in order benefit we have to look at history makes you look at things as a part of me that things to be something beneficial to walk that walk people around the death camps to the second world war were people were exterminated just remind them history force to block apiece things realize it decision to some we're the current one time this is what happens periodically the statistics be aware of them you know what can happen there's a diary kept by an amazing doctor hiroshima a guy named doctor meaty szeto hatch yeah and in his diary for troy he's a survivor of the sheik hiroshima bomb up with any goes on to the nearest thomas foley begins treating people one of the things that so terrible about these weapons because they created almost natural disaster first responders and the people that have to help all the damaged people are themselves victims and their facilities are part of what's damaged do you compound a difficult situation by killing all the doctors nurses and destroying the hospital's of the same time but in a move that chat shows how sometimes like in this case it's scientists but there are other people some professions also in this case this japanese scientists realizes as soon as she's not having people literally dying in his feet nine point four days later something he tell the other doctors that we have to start writing stuff down the data's can be really important to people on the future because there hasn't been many people who've lived through the issue yet another words this guy was are rethinking be on the war to posterity and knowing that actual data on live subjects in real world conditions will be rare an important for the future the court said his diarrhea from an amazing and heart warming but it doesn't help us if we don't use it we have to look at the start straight face and then say when you talking about nuclear war two talking about this or you're not talking about happen to some foreign people you don't know you simply have to put the faces of your own friends and family on the victims and imagine that instead hiroshima survivor i seem lak ocean was in the bathroom when the hiroshima bomb went off in the bathroom collapsed around her she finally got out with hubbell someone else and found her sister dreadfully injured mostly from the heat these bomb says one thing they had to be really convinced the bombs to minnesota flash some people describe it like a bluish white like a flash bulb washington would bring you but the war sunburn all with the bone you've ever seen it but calmly enough it was so quick that if you had clothing on especially like clothing you can be perfectly protected under the clothing your skin falling off everywhere else this woman describes getting out of dispatcher matter collapsed around her what happened next to remember the skimpy your wife for dorm other or your sister or your daughter called looking around for my sister as sorrow blind sprawled in the cord or the right side of her body covered with terrible burns she probably been washing our hands with her right hand stretched over the wash basin when caught by the searing heat i put my sister on my back and fled barefoot had jima park her face was festering for her burn center white guy was hanging out i pushed the allied backing the woodstock it and tried to use a gauze mask to hold it into place the turkey or had melted away there was nothing to attach the mask to you her mouth was twisted to the right and she could do no more than whimper for water are only the first syllable the word emerging distinctly on reaching a huge yellow park i laid my sister down on the ground and set off to search for my children the fires were still burning fiercely is streetcar that it burned bright wedded surrounded by people already killed by the fire or i saw a woman still holding onto was strapped and calling for help the intense heat prevented me from approaching or however there was nothing i could do to a man sitting on some stone steps i said come on let's get away from here and pulled him up by the hand but as i did so the skin came away from his hand he fell slowly to the ground i could see a shadow imprinted clearly on the wall behind him were read been sitting many people called out to me for help or water on burned because of having been in the lavatory i could only bring my hands together and apologize to the people i passed as i searched for some sign of my children as it turned out none of those who left that morning never came home again now my five children my grandfather my sister me chico or my cousin the ball you remain for me to find in treasure house burned down so i had not even of photographed remember them by sister his sako drew her last breath four days later in the evening of august tenth in agony from a massive injuries i will never forgive the expression on her face woman tried to give her a drop of water i was alone and call that's come into the tear jerk her that's meant to be an example that you multiply by the number of people who were involved in these catastrophe see if they happen when you stink about what people are afraid of understand that this is a science fiction just told the intent of nightmare story until it comes true and in this era the possibility of it coming true at times appears to be about the same chance then again huh and the retail we flip a coin and in another interesting study into the into the human condition can be made if you asked about the kind of people who advocate this as a viable been useful strategy fisherman see yourself we know who would do this to a plan for this and who could sit down and actually say in all this over and do if the imminent third world war happens and it will also this will do cool jazz that yes it was some kind of mass murder right want to kill people that's not how will the people that do the string see it they have what two people on the farther side the rainbows and you know corns oppenheimer powe with sighed think is an abhorrence way of doing things but there are a lot of people here that are making calculations about relative disasters you'll see this later on to you when you get these people at the sting tanks to will say illiterate trying to reduce the number of denim nuclear war from forty million to twenty million other people think that simply even trying to do that is morally reprehensible we should be talking about having no millions died right but if you read the account to people like curtis lemay that we're very famous leader of strategic air command wanna will be turned into a stock character in the nineteen sixties movie someone like doctor strangelove fails if they all have a ursula maytag the cigar chomping air force guy may his attitude was wanting you saw amongst a lot of generals and especially the spurt the second world war people who saw the major nasty part of modern war as being it's length and because the casualties mounted every day like a meat grinder anything you could do shut that down limit the length of time the war went on was humanitarian by its very nature or even if a white took to do that was a shocking amman of violence in a very short time to shock everybody into peace maybe not like was going on the korean war you want to unleashes heavy bombers as he had over japan in the second world war three testified afterwards that he would've been company words to his moment of the more humanitarian approach this is the philosophy of strategic bombers and believe it or not it's based on humanitarian ethics and just to show you how ingrained idiocy is not ironic winning name a nuclear weapons delivery systems as they've done more than once the names like a peacemaker and peacekeeper that the new bomber that will carry out these nuclear destruction someplace like the soviet union it happened in nineteen fifty nine fifty was the brain and the thirty six bomber which is nicknamed the peacemaker woman you said about the all out bombing campaign that they didn't do it the beginning of the korean war quote so we go on and don't do it and let the war go on over a period of three an hour for four years we did burn down every town in north korea in every town in south korea and what killed off twenty percent of the korean population when trying to say is if one should make a decision to use military force to solve your problem than you or you lose it and use an overwhelming military force use too much and deliberately used too much so that you'll make an error on the other side and not quite have enough when you roll over everything to start with you close it down just like that you save resources you save lives not only your role that the enemy's to anna recovery is quicker and everybody's back to peaceful existence hopefully a short period of time and go so when you want about the kind of people but to carry out these kinds of war aims which may sound apocalyptic to you these are people flying planes called peace makers who firmly believe that their way of war will end up being more beneficial to everybody in the end it's a similar pattern of you to douglas macarthur it's the traditional modern twentieth century military point of view our old war saves lives limited war prolongs the nastiness aunt again american presidents heads of the soviet union and china the heads of the western nato countries the allotting story about besides this idea of total victory take for example the idea that perhaps the whole goal for even partial defeat in an atomic war might have been something in the back of their heads nonetheless the way between war and zepa something good either side of that whole war versus limited war debate could probably use as ammunition in the discussion a friend harry truman might say listen by a medal in nineteen fifty one both sides with the armistice table talking in working out a deal to which the friends of crystal man douglas macarthur my counter by saying yes but the talks will go on for two years as soldiers will die on both sides the entire time to which the harry truman supporters could then replied yes will begin get we're war three bone game over or you say to that yes the situation in korea was a nightmare like to casualty lot to deadlocks civilians mean that all we're rabbit was nuclear war presidents are often forced into making lesser of two evils choices in this case gotta be pre indeed aren't there ever an outcome for nuclear war to not be the greater evil and in nineteen fifty two the greater evil he's getting worse that you have to say that harry truman deserves a lot of credit for getting us out of his entire terms in office without sending up bombing anyone with nuclear weapons after the secular war ended because i think it was of little call in with her now we did that remember all you have had to add ons listen to some of his military advisers any one of as truman's term in office winds down you can see that it's easy to say that is the world is playing a three dimensional geo political game of nuclear chest they're playing by the rules laid down by truman and let's be honest the people that he was playing nuclear shows with also joseph stalin the soviets it was a takes two to tango situation i'm between the two major sides things are hammered out energy in our input from your opinions and third world nations mean this is a global effort to cobble together way to deal with what is becoming ever increasing threat in the thread is moving so quickly but the sheer speed of technological change is more the most the stabilizing part of the entire equation what what do you get use to this and we've been pondering the question about whether humans can adapt to their weapons technology let's remember that want to part time people didn't have to adapt as quickly drop most of human history the pace of change was much less within it is today if you could take nineteen fifties atomic technology given to the ancient egyptians inside the system can change very much for the next fifteen generations take some time figuring out as the extra time they get help them do winner mean is just thinking of ancient egyptians with in a nuclear technology to weird even contemplate the point is is that but i tried again remember for these people are true minister grandfather surrounded by the grandfathers your friend help your grandfather with textiles right this is a guy who is sitting there listening to different nuclear physicist describe the pros and cons of different ideas and pushing difficult to be when he has to decide which one he agrees with why do i have an image i've been having to call is kean college to come on help them figure which are in the nuclear bomb off i can't find a body truman to looks like between your president from the non specialist technical arrow to the long were you after referee competing arguments between physicist like oppenheimer and teller or course a different kind of mind a different approach may be different kind of background the same i feel kind lucky we got out of that era intact but when you look at the last year or truman's presidency nineteen fifty two you can see it tsunami all danger is mounting in the distance and you just it's hard have confidence that the haberdashery fromm independence missouri who's already exceeded expectations you know and his flexibility in an atomic world hard to see him flexible enough to deal with some other things nineteen fifty two goings on in for example here's a guy who's advisers in administration helped craft as we said the rules for how you play this global chess match but when the two player game and in october nineteen fifty two the united kingdom expose their first atomic bomb now they run the nuclear club now let's save more than two person game it'll change or dynamics especially when in other party really bothers everybody about the u. k. test becomes clear which is that they will be the last power to join the nuclear club in a few years are you gonna have ten fifteen twenty powers with atomic bombs so in order for humans to adapt abyss new weapon they now have to adopt more people having it to the dynamics get much more complex no you had to go to change the power of the weaponry last month after the united kingdom and streets during atomic power united states demonstrate that they have the technology it works to build the super bowl they actually exploded to only a couple of days before the u. s. presidential election in the power of the bomb the stoning truly paradigm shift in the test occurs on an island in the pacific or it explodes there's a fireball more than three miles wide if lightning crackling inside it the craters more than six thousand feet in diameter of the holes more than a hundred and fifty feet deep it's somewhere between four and five hundred times more powerful neither the bombs were dropped in the second world war for five hundred times more powerful most common interesting about this tree compared to aromas how much of this weapons development psychological begin to have a psychological edge and you're going to be able to use things like deterrents effectively everyone had to know you have these weapons and so today you would imagine government would even tell anybody about any of the stuff that the united states announced the strengths we have this weapon now we're about weapon because that was important to its ability to be used the problem with something like the thermonuclear weapons the hydrogen bombs that they're so powerful now that they're in effect working against the idea that you can use them for deterrent read the bigger they get the less willing your enemy your adversary used to think you'll use it joseph stalin is quoted as saying the things in probably said that the public opinion in the peace movement around world winger governments in no one could use some megatron you know powerful weapon on asa 'cause world opinion polls will stand for it condition true to that but if you're the military and you wanna use these weapons or you or the intellectual is on the political associates of the president's new watcher deterrent to still buy can work how are you deal with that dynamic rate that the weapon is so powerful mobile bijur use of he makes more versions of all it's a decent argument to ask whether the most destabilizing effect of inventions from nineteen fifty two you can make an argument for all three is a nuclear proliferation starting is it the invention of the super the hydrogen bomb or is it the beginning of the revolution that we call today tactical nuclear weapons or battlefield nuclear weapons and the funny thing about is it some of the people who worked on and oppenheimer got roped into this body was doing a good thing on the creed smaller weapons because of thy create smaller nuclear weapons the military will be tempted to use the bigger ones turned out he was wrong about that in a famous quote though when he years later tried to explain his stinking he suddenly camera was then you would've had to scenic the air force's war plan for nineteen fifty which is what those goddamned us than ever saw that scared him so much five hundred in our atomic bombs dropped on russia that he thought i'll give 'em something they can use instead of those it turned out as as most drinkers assume today the tactical nuclear weapons open up the door dangerously to an escalation very quickly to the very big bombs that oppenheimer hoped would never be used could have the smaller bombs instead honest mistake that we're in new territory here are technologically speaking are we and other reason maybe you don't want truman running the show he's done a lot as well as maybe you could hope for so the guy who wins the presidency in nineteen fifty two is a very interesting choice but to say or i think more more history and realizing it now when i was a kid autonomy different view of general and now in november nineteen fifty two president elect dwight david eisenhower it's interesting i saw a couple of history surgery were speculating and it's not far off an to suspect elation maybe that partly with the united states is going for here in terms of the electorate what they had just had a president and general sort of disagreeing about how you fight this war korea at an all these question nuclear weapons in this whole new world everything which he just got a person with military experience put them in the top job in when the general was really to present a presence general too there are some people respectably to dwight eisenhower was kind of feeling which he stepped down in terms of responsibility when he took the american presidency for a job as he was coming down for my commander of nato it was the general of the west as one red arrows reading called and the general of the west now he's just merely the president of the united states but eisenhower's uninteresting dyke his administration by the way will fall lot of the same cycles that the truman wanted any ministry schneider him will tell you in part because we'll find that they have a lot of the same pressures and disincentives ensign is working on them that the previous administration also did it do you often tried to adopt the obvious solution in most cases which each wanted successively so as we said the true ministrations seems to have established a pattern that will be followed by subsequent ministrations in eisenhower's caseload of ballinger things happen basically right at the beginning of the eisenhower in history snuck up really upset the geopolitical chess board ways to keep him well both opportunities endangers the truman never had sex star but the fact that pretty much right after eisenhower actually takes office january twentieth nineteen fifty three joseph stalin died is march fifth nineteen fifty three he doesn't die like a long slow lingering death where russia has lots of time to preparing so visible to time to prepare for which we do afterwards he has like a stroke or something so it's it's pure today gone tomorrow or your date on my way to going very soon what the hell happened in the soviet union it does no joseph stalin this has been running the show personally so long in that country then there's a logical question that happens it happens right when stalin debilitated and immobile and paralyzed from the stroking your ring so pajamas lay on his floor on able to communicate his underlings around side is rumored it outside the door talking and we do there he is no logical successor to joseph stalin there was no organized system that dictated well here gervais spur me or takes over once upon a time all my stuff had been around stalin had come up in the system with lots of brilliant intellectual some people from the region revolution people like lenin in all seven great people stalin killed a lot of people on his way to power and for more than twenty years could easily see the same thing that we the fourteenth the french king famously said about in his relationship to the country when the fourteen said i am the state estate is me and joseph stalin could have been the poster boy it became up when you google the phrase cult of personality is modified what his successors will call it just that and yet the problem is is that this guy's personality was completely infuse on his country a country by the way as we pointed out before badly traumatized by surprise attack in the second world war you add to that the stalin view of communism which is it also paranoid which again maybe just finely tuned self defense and tenet of work you instead of but that the non communist power for portrait take you over that that the jury men surprise attack added that the juror paranoid dictator type anyway and isn't it interesting that that is all he infused on the player that the historical roll the dice just manages to get you the free world when you have your first ever nuclear chess match we apply joseph stalin to be a little machiavellian right to not have to be all peace lol poets and robert oppenheimer when you're playing that guy and by the way i got quite a few books on the soviets are the story and the problem with the soviets are the stories he once again it's all stalin in you can't figure the guy house you taking public statements in this month but the question that was put to several people by congress sakharov and others that have been baldness soviet nuclear program is one of the u. s. had gone machold be no but full force robert oppenheimer ban this stuff we're out what the soviets and joseph stalin had done that and to 'em and they all say all you would been seen as weak as stalin would go out push forward with his weapons program he would but i mean personally we believed it was pumped up often seems to all happening anyway in other words the u. s. and britain and nato in bed all dumb had gone up into way robert oppenheimer dream all we did that would not necessarily have had any solar real reciprocate shun from the other side because the other side was joseph stalin and as a march sixth nineteen fifty three for the first time in the nuclear age it's not truman never had the opportunity to deal with anyone else when stalin died is new things happen the world changes a little bit and it's an hour has a chance for example to come out with a proposal it's known as the adams for peace proposal now i have to make about the disclaimer here nothing can be trusted from the sooner that fact we alluded to this earlier for example these presidents from truman dies at the will all have to face is to them i don't know which one is real they will have one face or they will say you can never use these weapons when eisenhower fingers as you can have a nuclear war torn up bulldozers to scoop up the body case from the streets and yet you have other statements were made in all said it not every question our willingness to use these weapons so you have to say it for deterrents to work but did they secretly believe that you could use the weapons or is it the opposite but the pino some of these depends on how cynical you are as a writer but some of these writers in historical site none of the plan the entire time was to nuke everything that you just can't say that in public so you get up there and have been adams for peace for when we talk about working together to ban these terrible weapons i will say this i can imagine our leaders today having something like eisenhower speech to the united nations were he in nineteen fifty three lead the whole situation out now whether this is some sort of cynical geo political move and it's a public relations ploy or whether she serious and it's hard to know eisenhower was a deep and interesting and complex character but everything that we've been talking about in this program is stuff we know now the people in the time period or just as whiplash why technology is harry truman was an in nineteen fifty three eisenhower our but this is right after the hydrogen bomb concept is proven lays out the stakes to a bunch of people who maybe even realize exactly health threat in the world iberian brow are bigger they're ignoring read back the name your room one word jack we're bam perlmutter my life in the military probation when every word never do you back to langley in the language of atomic warfare the atomic theory has moved or had had made that every at the four your dad i'm comprehend it at least in comparative floor obviate them of a bell and yet will read that in to every one of i may if the people on the whole world ought to come back then intelligent but for free they might be armed with that they've never been back although they the fifth i mean by your medtronic danger and power is that the valley they did in united they are or the thy the only incomparable back i know i mean if i may play out that the family however that is the victim level not merely nigel in the on july third three nineteen forty five united they are an awful world or atomic explode and that they in nineteen forty five united states of america have been up to forty two i think of atomic bomb today are more than twenty five trying move at all at the weapon with what the atomic age all while i've heard you let them are you my ranges i'm ready and charm of the n. b. the cueva today you might have been a while atomic weapon with no court and richard daley a review by many a time the only prevalent on that pile of all wrong m. r. montiel that came from every plane and every gone him every three or war in all of the year of world war two anything more air group whether of rome or landlady that amount in every two when you read your book for you the got the cargo the thing being in power all along i fell on bret boone an all our world war two thus reducing the status for peace speech eisenhower like truman before him will you folks the specter of the world's great seabees lying in ruins the cultural achievements of the past of thousands of years of work to build up to destroy him to mankind having to rise from the ashes of the week he didn't destroy civilization just in case you were unaware of the stakes but there are so many different ways you can view people ride will understand and modern history in close to modern history makes it the most apparent because you can find statements from all these people contradicting themselves the lab private statements versus public statements di re zipping right in that they assume will someday be published purses secret diaries that they never want anyone else to see what is she your versus what is behind scenes and when harry truman talks on the terrible disease nuclear weapons can do he's the same guy that gave the go ahead to make them when eisenhower gives the speeches about these existential dangers mankind faces he is at the same time solving a budgetary problem by deciding to rely on the strategy with nuclear weapons that will be known as massive retaliation so which eisenhower do you buy or is it some sort of blended the two listen as we said good luck getting to the core of any of these public figures or so more time later did to know you actually had what they really believe that be tough to do in any time period and about the fact that as we all know when history compresses these human beings into one dimensional think you should lose so much of the new wanting imagine if you made it into the history books under u. sure now how much your life would be compressed into a few bullet points and did that sort of really give the true picture of you i mean even j. robert oppenheimer dean acheson stu much of a poet isn't always too much of a poet it was often opposed to nuclear weapons but not always sometimes is opposition was more role but sometimes it was technical and sometimes he saw good applications for nuclear powered weapons so he's been turned into an archetype by history as well given by me so but there are all that in mind and even with all that said it eisenhower use unusually confusing and misleading on purpose in his book bikes well off author evan thomas we use in that eisenhower's in your addiction to strategy card games n. and two wrongs of that into eisenhower's conduct of world affairs and how we handle the berries cards in his hand if you will and dealt with the uncertainties involved in other people's hands he was i guess the huge poker player but even bigger bridge player and bridget is played by all sorts of generals and politicians strategist they feel that a better represent the great geo political game than just as big as in cheshire can see all the pieces openly for us in a card game your hand is known only to you the adversaries have their hands secret you know what's in the deck to have to do a lot of blocking this is where eisenhower's in a deliberate i hate to some confusion and misleading nature inability to bluff his way into very situation seemed to correspond to being a master bridge player mean if you're gonna have somebody sitting the chair to represent your side in this historic old psychological game of strategy in uncertainty for the very highest of status which one again or and it sounds like what you're talking strategy games eisenhower was won and he was good he's got a new approach as we said in you got to be breathing a sigh of relief comes facing joseph stalin in the octagon at that game we really needed have nuclear weapons imagine injuring nineteen fifties when you really did get the ability to just are strikingly wow wow perish the thought he's gone now we're placing him in the chair is one of his subordinates and it's a fascinating guide to be playing against during the search is now you have the general of the west finally the west gets in there with one of these heavy wig and it's okay bring on your best shot in their best shot is a guy named nikita crew shut off why love nikita crew chavez want a great success story forever never find it's like to forget that abe lincoln log cabin story immunity it nikita khrushchev was born a peasant the only reason that he finally he is running one of the two great super powers in this era is because of the soviet communist revolution the bolshevik revolution to topple the tsar it before the first world war is over and hold early up n.'s that society and puts people in how or an authority who were you know mckinnon the menu or are the barn when they were teenagers the key to crew shot is a peasant hasn't he uses all the terminology you be at the big each about the so we usually hasn't saying that exposed to be deeply philosophical and no one else the room as any idea what they mean back to the sky was sold at the united states had the habit dasher for misery run the nuclear arsenal for awhile and trying to adjust the soviet union's about to gain the kind of power were maybe they could begin to actually is opposed to theoretically threatening united states with atomic weaponry and that gets given to a guy who was born a peasant and he's jest fascinating and this is a man who's got a huge challenge ahead of him and we certainly in the west never understood this was all going on and still not well understood including by me in the least of all bought me the crew sheriff was part of the group it comes to power in the soviet union intent on perhaps she could say guiding that state who was soft landing from stalinism this was not some consensus lo and were powerful entities in that state vying for leadership also and you're much more closely to the old style online professor david holloway news excellent book stalin and the bomb talks about how it was really the pressure is caused by the reality of nuclear war that forced some of these leaders to take it at a different look at even their orthodox communist innocence very bolshevik the country star list the u. off while the entire world reality because professor halle says that was stalin's conviction and connected to his views on the marxism in an inevitability of award training puerile us to the communist dates that within ten to twenty years were war three was coming the courses are warm was awakening to world war three was convened nuclear weapons it was gunning devastation nineteen fifty five war plan that the u. s. a commission to check out how the people would die the u. s. carried out to propose strikes against us obediently in world war three broke out the number came back to be sixty million and a decent number of those people coming from the countries like poland and hungary all those places that were sort of under the thumb of that the soviet so that even justify that right sorry your captive for summer number we're gonna new que in order for you up eventually burn down your village or to say that but holloway talks about crucial from his group gaining power and beginning to talk about things that are famous in history books like peaceful coexistence this violates dollars view holloway says on the inevitable war that was coming because of the inevitable war this coming as armageddon will battle mess up your long term planning want it and how we're right to this bond crucial from his people trying to walk back communist ideology in order to prevent it from inevitably running into global thermonuclear war he writes quote by asserting a capitalism socialism could co exist for along time of the new leaders of the soviet union were rejecting stalin's vision of another world war within fifteen to twenty years of the yen the boer war chew peaceful coexistence in quotation marks was defined as the alternative to nuclear war as the policy that had to be followed its nuclear war was to be avoided and co how within tells a story the cruise ship and told about needing a much more hardliner mob leader china and now we still talking in terms of the issue to calm all out war against the capitalist accretion of henri seems to be now have moved on from that this is part of which starts to create the schism amongst the communist states almost the way you would see religious break office two or three or four hundred years before this era when all the sudden change in religious doctrine or dogma messed up enough people so that we're gonna go this way you're gonna go that way united states in the west saw the khan younis up to this jury has a monolithic block who took their oars from moscow normal son some of these cummings countries are beginning to have disagreements with each other some of them are geopolitical but some of them or ideological but according to professor holloway people like corrosion c. this is something that is simply bowing to we are all would be in a nuclear world the school peaceful coexistence did not mean ideological coexistence however you ordered it entailed renunciation of the struggle with imperialism but that struggle had to be conducted in such a way as to avoid nuclear war end quote in other words the new leaders of the soviet union are also trying to figure out how you operate under the old rules in a world were you aware of nuclear weapons and where they are increasingly getting more and more powerful disobedient in explodes its first hydrogen weapon were you get a disagreement about this august twelfth nineteen fifty three is a good day for there's some of the real nitpick rituals of bogota to idle dunlop and will build it into the physics of that nonetheless over the next your war two the soviets were for the weapon report or no one will argue anymore that they need to worry thermonuclear power the equation in terms of the global dynamics will be altered though by the beat us to stick goes off on march first nineteen fifty four this is a test by the way that was not supposed to be this large instead turns out to be the largest explosion ever set off by the united states this day more than fifteen make it on us all the bravo test this time the fireball was like four miles water mean everything just get to the room large urban would may bravo so and the glee over the top in terms of waking up the public to allowable where it is the alarm baden's really were raised on a wide range of but demographics you know we're as before if you were european and unlikely nuclear battlefield you were always aware what might happen to you if you were a person living in india with not a care in the world of these cold war invented this particular time period you would notice will lot of the rush to the world noticed about the castle bravo text was radiological disaster and because it was so much larger than experts and had predicted it is opened up the door of being wrong about some of the stop there were physicist who had worse case scenarios in their nightmares your firm before this jury that body did as wrong all atmosphere to catch on fire all these kinds of things that some crazy but on the thesis is what we do know if that's possible but just to show that just because she cordon off or to think is a safe area you try to make his own or you can see what these weapons can do doesn't make them safe the cordoned off his own people outside the zone got radiological more than a hundred miles away famously the japanese fishing boat outside the exclusionary zone it was bombarded with radiation immense amount of fall out one of the year you know when he's s. happen any specific coral reefs and whatnot are adam i used for lack of a better word and turned into like my grew dust particles ambled out into the mushroom cloud and the atmosphere all summer radiated when they fall back down to earth they can make you ruled sick and die soon if you're close by but even if you're for way gets into your water gets into your mail gets into your food chain starts affecting people and after the castle bravo test the rest of the world began to watch the giant geopolitical card game more three dimensional chess game between the great powers as some of the spectator audience and in this particular game the audience made a difference of both sides tried to appeal to the audience the audience in this case metaphorically speaking this global public opinion something to really comes of age in this period in part because the whole understanding that nuclear weapons use even just testing the part of the single global power could affect everyone all the sudden everyone had skin in the game by the way the error of colonialism was over and the most part and major countries like britain and france and others were shedding their colonies are former colonies in the former possessions and these places were forming their own government and sovereignty of the roman for a change in they kind of sometimes go to the cold war the way the man from mars that we talked about earlier wanted outsiders who were only worried about the idea that was and i don't care which are beef is with each other just don't pollute the world we all need and dispute our block mattered increasingly so as communication mass media allow people to be involved in the conversation and all the sudden you had groups of people that could be used in this discussion over how we go forward in terms of how we learn to cope with our weapons technology to group the scientist the einstein to the bertrand russell sonny oppenheimer types to all of a sudden appeal directly to world opinion and try to harness it to push more for the review board of how you adapted he's weapons systems you deputies weapons systems in their opinion by getting rid of war not getting rid of the weapons of war 'cause it's their opinion that if the weapons are there and we just pledge not to use and eventually some was gonna grab one make won what we need to do especially if you're losing the third world war show that they don't but the scientists are saying we know what's gonna be tough to have to stop this whole policy of war the news new whole symbolized history nishi something in nineteen fifty five again aimed to wes cooley at global public opinion they do in a press conference how modern is that where bertrand russell our old friend him before the soviets got the bomb at these nightmares of london lying in when one's about maybe we should get the soviet first key and albert einstein of einstein's ross gigs and others would get out there and push something no in history as the rosso einstein manifesto and starts off with bertrand russell telling you this line is a good would start off a piece if you want to say basically to sing you know which writing this torch global public opinion and we're on inside the manifesto begin with russell saying quote i'm bringing the warning pronounced by the signatories meaning of the manifesto to the notice of all powerful governments of the world in the earnest hope that they may agree to allow their citizens to survive and court the piecing goes on to talk about the power of nuclear weapons into goes on to talk about how they understand that the idea of getting rid of war since pie in the sky but the power of these weapons has changed everything including the power to pollute but to then go on to say as high in the sky if you will lose the abolition of war sounds you must keep your eyes on what failure in this realm would mean it's very similar this idea of sending people to go look at the death camps five minutes after the liberation happens manifesto says quote the abolition of war will demand distasteful limitations of national sovereignty but what perhaps impedes understanding of the situation more than anything else is that the term a man caught in it in court feels made an abstract people scarcely realize in imagination that the dangerous to themselves and their children and their grandchildren and not only to wood dimly apprehended humanity they can scarcely bring themselves to grasp the day individually and those whom the law bring imminent danger of perishing agonizingly and so the hope that perhaps war may be allowed to continue provided modern weapons are for him to did and co it can go on to explain why that's a pipe dream the point is that all of us on the scientists can appeal directly to the general public out there and they can position them as a block of power up homes to the government of the world we're continuing to act the way government of the world about it forever the rossell einstein group of scientists has found their block of support and its international nature now there are other great intellectual fingers off their cool form the counterpoint to these people we talked about the maurice people the stored in all getting together major universities places like yield one of these other intellectuals who don't buy this idea that we can change so fundamentally that we did outlaw war they begin trying to think of how once again you live with these weapons in the way the more closely corresponds to how history has shown that we're likely to behave and if the worst happens how do you somehow home mitigate the worst case scenario earlier we answer the eisenhower was a good strategic card game player if you're gonna be involved in this kind of a global game if you will the joulwan have a gamer in opposition but in a country of hundreds of millions of people want to stop the one good game or if you were playing a chess game for the survival of the world on your side when she want all you're intelligent people getting together somewhere in analyzing it studying again if you will paralyzing every move and possible power move every variable that my crop up and if it's a card game hold an atomic bomb cords and are handed somebody draws an ace of clubs in a minute you know what we do those people began to collapse after the second world war these amazingly intelligent intellectuals and will eventually find themselves working together in places like the famous rand corporation but they didn't start out why they started by essentially asking the kind of questions there are a function of the time the sort of higher questions of the sort to get truman in trouble with regard to refer war aims right means famously more these people were the founding fathers would today we would call civilian defense intellectuals was a guy named bernard brody number or you'll famously get involved initially with all this just because we're forced asked him to look at some were war two bombing results and analyze them but this eventually lead to brody asking fundamental questions like okay wall on how big a bombs do we need to do what in order to achieve what i'm all these deep questions that in general the military guys were thinking about this this was a part of the gate in korea mccarthy job was to win the war not to figure out the political situation afterwards and all this but all these people are rising in the nuclear arid intellectual four point out that carries no separation between those things you know how you fight the war will determine so many other things for example but the big proms the brody had with the entire warplane the guy's going curtis who may have come up with you know no disobeying all of one time with his boss will get over with with the lost every bit of leverage but you might have bro he argued that the game goes on even when nuclear weapons start falling and the way things turn out in a big difference between maybe ha-ha-ha good million lives could be how you play the game watch the bomb start falling here's the thing all these people at the rand corporation the defense elections are often characterized as a combination like mr spock in sheldon cooper from the big bang theory people with great mathematics in economics backgrounds were so great crunching numbers are often seen detached from the real world beyond actually all of the job what they're studying at the worst case scenario happens unless it's hard to argue with some of the things they say for example your brody and famously said early on did you see these as hostage and you know your adversaries cities held hostage is a bomb or valuable but having a budget corpses made the mayor's plan creating corpses we want to preserve flexibility even after the atomic bomb was dropped him he pointed out this way for kaplan is nineteen eighties classic wizards armageddon discusses it he says quote brody reasoned that the final surrender of the japanese in the pacific war resulted not from the atom bombs dropped on hiroshima and nagasaki but from the implicit threat of more atom bombs on their way to the japanese did not give up man like why is he writes the soviets would more likely stop fighting after receiving some destructive blows knowing that if they did not stop their cities would be the next target to get hit if however we blow up their studies at the very outset of the war the bargaining lever would be blown up along with them hostages have no value wants to your killed consequently the soviets would feel no inhibitions about blowing up american cities in return hardly an outcome that would serve the interest of american security and co it's a combination of all coldly dispassionately logical and at the same time in its own why it especially when compared to the atomic bullets plan that the air force had in place humanitarian these are the people that will call us and brody is one of them herman calm as another jon bon women will be emboldened by norman has been called by some people the most intelligent man who's ever lived the guy's very debatable but you know if you're anywhere in that conversation did incredible maligned in the nineteen twenties ongoing and famously in a poker game devises the modern version of what you could call mathematical theory of games because that's what they did call it today we just call a game theory the standard definition game theory is a mathematically precise method of determining rational strategies in the face of critical uncertainties so so to my beeper useful and again doesn't it or war or for that matter or war game there had been antecedents of course before von norman others will come and afterwards and including the norman's more by this time and he should the kind of people that want to employ those kinds of theories to analyze this game but they're going to run into the same problem those intellectuals who gonna see mankind evolve away from war running into you the speed of the pace of change everything keeps evolving so quickly nature may think you have this atomic poker game figured out one deck somebody decides okay norman play with another deck added to it it upsets your paradigm regular basis it's arguable but perhaps the biggest t. stabilizer between nineteen fifty nineteen sixties the growth of missile technology which unity in the second run for the soviets in the west for both scouring germany is preoccupied to grab as many nazi scientists is a colored because in a couple of key areas german scientists were head of the west and the soviet missile technology for example they've been using at the end of the war the so-called the b. t. u. and as places like london and suspiciously for both the next ten years among these missiles will look like carbon copies of the v. to the united states regret what the scientists again in firmer braun braun who would of course be into which won the u. s. space program later the space programs themselves above the soviet union in the united states had we'll call it dual purpose technological applicability because when the soviets watch the first satellite in space sputnik in nineteen fifty seven some people worry that the soviet turn our heads in space technology but a lot of people understand it you can put aside like space the tip of rocket you can put a bomb on the tip of rock and send it to the united states the real key change for me reading all this material was the modern material makes it clear that even though the time united states was most frightened of nuclear war hitting them when they were building a bomb shelters in the back yard in nebraska the soviet union probably had very little chance of launching an attack on the us as we said earlier first of all any attack during the jury would involve aircraft in the united states had a wonderful defensive air force took a shot down anything but it's missiles that change that they also star putting them on submarines which changes everything to do the difference between nineteen fifty and nineteen sixty in terms of trying to control and carolco threat to the growing instability is nine day is nuclear expert joseph cirincione points out after discussing the adams for peace idea that eisner which route to the rules of the osama nineteen fifty five between eisenhower crucial trying to to break the tension somewhat the key from chevy van came to the united states in the late fifties and visited led around by a vice president nixon in the press in tow so to get to know you and both sides to the soul of humanize each other a little bit but for every decrease intentions on one hand there was something on the other hand to make up for it and the complexity and increasing power of the weapons just made the job thing you want award to control these things darn near impossible listen to joseph serving she only rundown the growth in weapons technology in the ten years between nineteen fifty in nineteen sixty he wrote quote while i was for peace was promoting nuclear technology for peaceful purposes the u. s. military was equipping our troops with thousands of nuclear weapons adapting number used in nuclear depth charges nuclear torpedoes nuclear minds nuclear artillery and even a nuclear bazooka this infantry weapon called the davy crockett would firing nuclear warhead about half a mile both united states and the soviet union develop strategies to fight and we in the nuclear war created vast nuclear weapon complexes and began deploying intercontinental ballistic missiles and fleets of ballistic missile submarines be effective abandonment of international control efforts on the race to build a numerical on the qualitative nuclear damage resulted in the american nuclear arsenal mushrooming from just under four hundred weapons in nineteen fifty two over twenty thousand by nineteen sixty the soviet arsenal likewise jump from five warheads in nineteen fifty to roughly sixteen hundred in nineteen sixty the united states was ahead but afraid and co when you think about the situation that harry truman was trying to cope with you know from forty five to fifty two more seen a complex of the time look at how all of this stuff makes that look like a card game with a single deck another time eisenhower leaves office he's playing multilevel shells were atomic poker with nine dax will go on at the same time but he's grown with it he's learned how to play this game he started and stepped in and the time loop is much less complicated the trimming showrooms chances of outta my hands we things and his hand is my strategy good block and handed his hand of cards over to know what the great gamers the guy you would say if you had him take the might've been uniquely qualified for this time in this place but he's also the head of the system that doesn't pick their people based on qualification the person to get to sit in the chair and play the other side with the world is your stakes in the card game of the chess match chosen by the electorate they could choose anybody nineteen sixty will be dwight eisenhower plaster office the constitution mandates that should get no more than two terms his time is up he's down anyway the presidency white people on anyway to help brahms mean it's time for someone in the problem is is always qualified to take over the game from eisenhower what if you get someone in there who plays poorly the voters in the united states avoid helen responsibility when they were voting saying for president roosevelt for reelection in nineteen forty the warm voting for the most dangerous human being of all time when they go the polls in nineteen sixty double for someone to replace retiring fordice power that's exactly what you're voting for for all his power and authority in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties franklin delano roosevelt you have atomic weapons two hundred taken us to nuclear war like president's after nineteen forty five what's more he operated in the constitutional framework but especially for the big wars were cornered the involvement of other people the congress for example he couldn't do this by himself nineteen forty five in the advent of atomic weapons changed all that the truman administration to cut power to themselves rightly or wrongly they have some good reasons but you can disagree about them but solidified power or to use these extraordinary weapons in the hands of a single human being don't ever had that kind of power in u. s. presidents from nineteen forty five on are infinitely more dangerous in the worst case scenario than they were before then and we americans tend not to think of our own people as scary and dangerous but you can bet that in other countries in nineteen sixty place isn't might be on the receiving end of the worst case scenario people for example living in the old soviet union those people certainly would've recognized the potential danger but the most dangerous figure in world history a person who will be determined bye the bed together when news of the u. s. select turret of course the problem one might ask is if you have issues with that what would you rather have picked a person and think about and carefully because the power of a person is getting more scary all the time to present a tuxedo eisenhower will be the first one to control the u. s. nuclear arsenal in an error where're a porsche by the holocaust becomes possible during our eisenhower's time and nuclear war broken out the vast majority of it would've been fought with your planes dropping bombs the next president of the united states is going to have enough intercontinental ballistic missiles deployed so that they have the metaphorical chrissy really which is given order raton all that but the metaphor cornbread biden is they call it it becomes reality during this era think of how dangers that human being is he's a person is going to have to make nuclear decision potentially with only minutes to debate and to sign it one human being is qualified for that morsel of qualifications if you could molder perfect president and steward of that kind of power and authority which were professional or education or personal background would you want bush wants someone who was a politician controlling that with the nuclear arsenal with their finger on the button or a. b. you think that something that you could trust day businessperson morsel more to put a question to profit lawson the gruber survived ability and maybe there's a lot of things you could argue that that would be beneficial or maybe maybe you want someone who thinks about nothing but this geopolitical atomic card game all the time you want what those mathematical economists from someplace like the rand corporation put them in the white house or maybe you wanna go totally different direction you need someone who's got the more big picture humanity side of this like the people at the russell einstein manifesto said remember your shoe manatee and forget the rest right to all of those beers maybe one philosopher or maybe you want someone who's very religious maybe you wanna gandhi type president and first boat is president i realize it's a long shot but you know extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures or maybe you wanna we create the eisenhower years in pictures of the general although you get term after term after term in the white house occupied by a military leader start to look a little weak piano democratic republic doesn't it what's more when made eisenhower so particularly i thought suited as i said for the role was in daddy was a general and because of that he was a super hawk it's because he carried the credibility of being a general possession less hawkish than his military advisers lot of the time sometimes they would want to be more risky and more muscular and would be eisenhower that would say no i had eisenhower instead the civilian like truman maybe these no incredible were war two guys who made up along the water advisers in the sooner they were big powerful charisma the figures themselves the mayor steam rolled another civilian like truman but during this critical purina we were trying to get the formula right the guy who stood in the civilian roland projected to civilian rule was himself a military guy could push back against the general's comes now you can accuse eisenhower not understanding the military situation but now eisenhower was leaving who was going to have the ability in the background to stand up if the generals were to push again a hawkish direction the consequences for voters getting strong in nineteen sixty are enormous it's probably at this point if the man from mars we've been using as part of our discussion years watching the nineteen sixty election we're he's not gonna be able to figure out we human beings of all because of the mind any mr spock type character the gun look at this and logically figure out that the only thing american should care about is getting the sword damocles question right but that's not how human beings from jeannie any system when they're allowed to have an opinion it'll be one of the concerns of factors into their decision over with table for four most dangerous man in all human history but it will not be the exclusive thing the media medicare but domestic issues to my big tax question that determines who to vote for it's probably going to be an issue of what party they are urso americans are gonna vote reliably for the republican candidate the other for democrats the sword damocles can prevent your party loyalty from coming into play finally and this is the board that but i would night you would really confused man for moore's the question of personal charisma in glamour like ability will come into this annual think to yourself well of course that's just how these things function but if you back often look at it from an outside his viewpoint was that becomes the reason you vote for the person who plays he really poor game of atomic poker nuclear bridge three dimensional geopolitical nuclear booby trap chess of course as these international groups like to bertrand russell reinstein group might point out it's also had a lot of power for american voters to make a decision that impacts the people or rome world who have no say in all of the decision people that we were talking about money and you do not care about the u. s. tax rate of all in the nineteen sixty like jim but they sure as heck hope that the proper person is put in charge of the nuclear arsenal or look into central europeans or right smack dab in the center of the cross hairs of nuclear war breaks out in europe we're sure insisted they add that the american people are gonna vote for president based on it was better looking well in nineteen sixty the better looking candidate wins he's also by him leaps and bounds the far richer candidate is less experience candidate he is the younger candidate which is saying something as richard nixon the republican former vice president under eisenhower's a mere forty six years old which asia on that his opponent wins is john f. kennedy he's in your forty three still the youngest man ever elected to the office he's a kid the seventy year old eisenhower is all be bold you walk off the stage and turn over the nuclear launch codes to a kid a playboy a millionaire playboy father's money estimated that only read in forbes magazine by three hundred million dollars in it so much it doesn't matter whether it's adjusted for inflation or not that was an ambassador his earlier history have a rich we made the manu amore shorter than being ambassador the sun was a swinger mean play around with guys like frank sinatra most guys david allotted girls or his wife don't want people to that interested me talk about that much but have more these families that was so beautiful and photogenic that life magazine in time magazine all these things of that gave all the public exposure to him free of charge helped him on the town of that photogenic nature and you know how the time that everybody can understand the stats just politics what is that something that sounded by the time we're picking your leaders we'll give them the sort of power that richard nixon don't feel bad you get to the president to does not in nineteen sixty or brag about in nineteen seventy four when immediately he's got a few more missiles and rust belt and kennedy will have him tell the press in nineteen seventy four and they should wake everyone up to the disaster you would have if you vote for the wrong person as they have this power to nixon quick to the press that i can go into my office and pick up my telephone in twenty five minutes seventy million people will be dead the real danger in the system created to manage nuclear weapons is that there is no margin for error easy one striking iraq situation how long do you trust the electorate in the political system in general because after all the electorate can only choose a candidate to do well to the political system how long do you trust them do this without making some sort of a terrible mistake in nineteen sixty election when john f. kennedy becomes the president of united states there's a significant number of people that think the light weight has just been given control of the nuclear arsenal and unfortunately for world advance of coming what those people gonna turn out to be nikita krishna it can be wrong about that but that's what sets the stage for disaster reach those kind of miscalculations that's the exact word kennedy used the j. f. k. thought might lead the war because by this period it's becoming apparent that neither side wants that to have the gamma wharf neither side wanted mistaken miscalculation something unforeseen in the book inside the kremlin's cold war barb onslaught zoo balkan konstantin push it off it's interesting to read exactly how much crew shampoos hoping kennedy would become the president but not because he thought it was weak because he thought he might be another franklin roosevelt someone who could reach out and could have another relationship the way stalin and roosevelt relationship was seen to be kirshenbaum currently i know this deep everything he coded to help kennedy get elected told k. g. b. officers in washington you analyze the situation descending you can do diplomatically or with propaganda to help you what called kennedy his president after he was elected and told him at the first night i meaning they ever had to know i'd actually did now trying to figure out the motivations of the soviet leader in the situation is as difficult as it is for any of these other politicians and people we've been discussing right on the line ears to the core of the onion are impossible to discern but still book and pleasure coughing inside the kremlin to cold war seemed to indicate and crew chef was excited about kennedy coming to the presidency not because he was happy to have some sort of weakling or light weight at least compared to eisenhower was anyway it's heavyweight in office because he realistically believed the sources told him the kennedy was a pragmatist which you was not an ideal log maybe you could deal with a man like that two balkan pleasure cooperate quote crew showbuzz paroled optimistic and often wishful thinking in the early mom senator kennedy's election he had any resist above temptation to see he is is is in quotes new president and the best light he tried many channels to convey the kennedy and his presidency could open up a new harrowing u. s. soviet relations and go to no detractors are blind and say it's all part of a plan he's just gonna do your honor will work is kinda not might be true to two recent history you can't always tell but it seemed like there was this honeymoon period on a honeymoon period lasted pretty much up into about april because in april something happened to curb shove thought who's going to get to turn to an absolute clean slate new page after the eisenhower administrator hardly knew would really think that because he would be not taking into account the fact nobody gets to start off with a clean slate especially not in the u. s. political system words we said this is a tag team at the game atomic poker an the same way eisenhower had to take over truman's hand in the game it kennedy has to take over eisenhower's hand in the game and ice allison crappy guards it's lay them out there right now he warns kennedy about induces a blouse and obese and for what is warning you kennedy would find that next door neighbors vietnam ended up making more of his time and attention i said i'll also an old one card everybody knew was dangerous and in the berlin incarnate which was once again hot as hell kirsch inwood say about berlin the berlin was the testicles of the west every time i want to make the west scream i squeeze on berlin it's queasy in the late nineteen fifties it became more of the two closest times the eisenhower administration came into nuclear war the other was over a couple islands off the coast to china but the hand that card over to you the new young president the hand and kennedy nucor an unexpected car won that has become in a more more important but to the weird place it's cuba ninety miles off the u. s. coast normally replace the u. s. would not be looking for trouble during this error as we said they see the whole freedom communism battles a zero sum game if communism when some country on the edge of the earth that's a big deal so how the heck it ever smack into cuba well it's a good story little off the beaten path for us except as it relates to this great game the late nineteen fifties the government the autocratic strongman style government of fulgencio batista's topple as revolutionary led by getting fidel castro in unity or call his lieutenants name she guevara for a very short period of time no one knows what these guys rebel but then they end up by hook or by crook there's disagreement about this aligning themselves with the social side of the world this is a huge problem as far as the eisenhower administration is concerned during their last years in office it had to be dealt with the plan the c. i. a. plan involving exiles from cuba we're going to hit the beaches of a place called the bay of pigs overthrow that castro government but eisenhower was gonna leave office before the plane was ready to why is our handed that card to john f. kennedy and only a couple months after getting into office the new kid during the learning curve decide to go ahead with the eyes our plan to the cia says it's good to military want to do it basically to kennedy does it and he fails kennedy took a town of personal heat for not stepping in and overtly helping more money cia back to cubans got into trouble but he was trying to preserve the same sort of fig leaf fiction in cuba that it was a cuban on cuban thing that but the chinese is soviet didn't try to preserve in korea that knew when you fight the wars during the cold war most of his biographers lois church the kennedy learned something from the study changed him he already had leanings in this direction the change to see kennedy was a circle award that tree was no eisenhower he commanded a little p. t. bill would like fifteen people on it but while he was commanding a big are cutting into by japanese destroyer the brandon do when he lost too many instantly an ad he was a highly publicized and used for his political gain story but he was essentially true he rescued his own crew telling one wounded man by his life vest with the rope attached to the white best in his teeth as he swam to ireland's miles away she is at harvard swim team experience comes in handy but kennedy it said that being a lowly lieutenant so tough on the ground on the scene taught him how are out of touch the people he called the brass hats the military leaders back in washington were with the reality is what the troops were dealing with and that attitude a common soldiers attitude of the ground by the way was reinforced after the bay of pigs disaster when he got the advice from the cia in his military advisers to the top was expert opinion and in one sense was that doesn't mean it's right kennedy would shattered by what happened at the bay of pigs you disposed to be crying afterward she was out of sword for a long time adviser during meetings with catch him staring off into space saying that how can i been so stupid biographer robert della correct court how could i mean is so stupid was his way of asking why he'd been so gullible he puzzled over the fact that he had not asked harder questions have allowed the so called collective wisdom of always experienced national security officials to persuade him to go ahead he had assumed he later told adviser arthur schlesinger that quote the military and intelligence people have some secret spielman available the ordinary mortals and quote the experience taught in court never to rely on the experts in the cold be told journalists ben bradlee quote the first advice i'm going to give my successor is to watch the generals and to avoid feeling that just because they were military men their opinions on military matters were worth a damn and call you know it's tempting to say that there are some lucky are historically speaking to kennedy got this last and reinforced at such an early time in his career before things really heated up a mistake to really get high because only a few months into his career kennedy has decided which have to be skeptical of expert advice sometimes in this case though his acceptance of an eisenhower tiny planet made him look a lot more like the previous administration and this happening right before the meeting with nicky the crow chef put the whole co basha on the honeymoon between kennedy incursion as though once allison cheated on the other after only a couple of months american if anybody was likely to do that well john f. kennedy anomalous he went into this summit right after the bay of pigs fiasco to meet tricia of iodide in every book you will ever read of the subject no one can resist what you're obviously the visual and background comparison of these two guys really get together could you find too more on like a people from their physical differences ameen john f. kennedy's could've been iconic he's the glamour president in terms of looks in sharman all the kind of thing in and and he's like the money man he's a propaganda it stock character if you're doing this for the soviet newsreels uneasy is the money man from a monopoly game the crew shot is a peasant but he's one of these peasants whose sneaky and he's a survivor he takes great pride in being able to al with people who should know better than he does he has no real formal education he has however a background in life it is formidable do book and pleasure golf describe it to man's first face to face meeting at the vienna summit starting on june third unending on june fourth nineteen sixty one to sway court perot chef met with kennedy in vienna as a prima donna meeting with the first time starlet i heard you were young and promising man per share of greeted the forty three rule president the difference in age was almost a quarter century this generation gap grows into an abyss if one thinks of all the milestones of russian history as well as the personal experience the good shape for shit out of which kennedy had only limited understanding the only two links between the leaders were were war two in the nuclear polarization the cold war and co cruise ship had already decided after the bay of pigs fiasco the kennedy was weaker than eisenhower or something he could probably assumed that now we thought he detected something the vienna summit he put his theory to the test at the summit for two days to put the hard pressed on john kennedy and kennedy stumbled he came in with a lot of proposals that sounded just like the camera guy kershaw goes looking for a typically first you're president of all the idealism that comes with it make some of understated implied idea that shortly reasonable people can sit down and settle our differences and ran into a buzz saw in he described the experience to james reston of the new york times he said that the summit meeting in corbin rob the sting in my life he just beat the hell out of me about a terrible problem of feeding center inexperienced and have no guts and so we're we're move those ideas we will get anywhere with him and call cruise ships and kennedy was too intelligent two week want to get when you read the history books on this it's amazing how many of them use poker or some sort of strategic game to describe the situation because they're so much brinkmanship going on so much blocked all and so much testing out of your ballot in this case crumb shaft chewing the bay of pigs in the summit has determined out that he's dealing with a much more timid jurors what his aides said american leaders are more humid churkin eisenhower the new inside the kremlin cold war the right call after the first day of talks but to be a summit khrushchev's advisers who waited for his returning from the soviet embassy asked him about his impressions and kennedy you should waved his hand dismissive lee kennedy said was no match for eisenhower the lacked the broad horizons and the statesmanship of the earlier president and co but this changed crew shares view of the man and what he could get away with and what he might decide to try which is exactly what to vulcan pleasure comsat a kerchief told his advisers and some of them said maybe we should have a listen to this and maybe that will you better relations incursion told them but the favorable situation must be exploited in other words crew shaft originally went into this whole thing may be trying to defuse tensions saw that he was faced with what he thought was a week president the week player running of the set the table couldn't turn down the fabulous opportunity that the role of the historical by seemed to have delivered his side and so began to play the game that we would've played it in a pre nuclear era we met here valley was told you to play it but as kennedy theorized when neither side wants war you're like we have won break out over some miscalculation cushions was making a dangerous one i think in the kennedy was weak he was now going to play his hand and based on the assumption that that's the kind of man he was competing against what happens when that gaming strategy run smack dab into the fact you have misjudged your opponent perhaps apocalyptic resell but hard to each for the destroyer of worlds the people from the bertrand russell side of the u. balls to deal with our weapons technology today would say it but the problem here is the game itself is too dangerous because it involves brinkmanship that's how it's played that white everyone including me compares it to a game the rules were laid out very openly by u. s. secretary of state john foster dulles little nineteen fifties when he said quote the ability to get to the berge without getting into the war is the necessary part if you cannot master read you inevitably get into war if you try to run away from it if you're scared to go to the brink you're lost and the co but when the brink is armageddon how was thinking you go to the brink and no you're not gonna tumble over the edge kennedy will come into office as like a dream candidate for the defense intellectuals in places like the rand corporation because he would bring in people that think that the ranch people have the right can you bring in people from outside the government structures defense secretary will be a guy who headed up ford motor company to bring him in some of the business people to take and look at all this and say we've been doing it this way for a long time missis the way we should do it a lot of those people like robert mcnamara defense secretary but those ideas that the ranch people were pushing about it and fled to bungee different hard to us to play dumb strategically sound logical the candy ministrations his famous for what the biggest changes in all of nuclear history of something called flexible response traditionally you go for my son hours master bertelli haitian the kennedys flexible response i used to be a little bit better talking about this before air raid some of the new were booked by people like francis to gavin to basically say something like flexible response was much more for p. r. then what really was on the ground the idea that you could tell the people on the nuclear battlefield in europe they don't worry we won't go nuclear weapons to the very first option at all sorts of benefits were as kennedy and eisenhower and truman all kind of thought that if nuclear war breaks on everybody's been user breathing have anyway this game of being able to throw few bombs all there stop and see what happens sounds good in the classroom but in reality that probably know what can happen nonetheless that took an for a new look at the at the security strategy when it came to using nuclear weapons raided the time when kennedy's up against a guy who was every bit as good of the block for as eisenhower was purchased a fantastic our game player too and as the strange on those guys points out he uses rhetoric and blaster emblem off to cover up for his own size weakness because with the united states doesn't know when can he gets into office talking about a missile gap for the soviet union has more missiles in the united states is that the soviet union is woefully unprepared of nuclear war came tomorrow so when crew chef says they're turning out missiles like sausages in russia no no choice but to believe him the way the u. s. is in finding out what little they could about was going on was with these overflights of russian territory with these amazing harlem reconnaissance planes called you two points but you have to salute the guardian and dart out grew quickly they're worried our shows victory they are but declined too high for the russians to intercept but they cause international incidents and eventually the story getting shot down by missiles when those pilots for the russian hand you've really internationally to that and that was happening during the eisenhower would ministrations but in nineteen sixty one kennedy orders the satellites which are relatively new to to take a look at the soviet union and tell him what they see an overture you sir for what they looked down at him a comeback in the expert briefed the president say they've got one for intercontinental ballistic missiles n. are you ready to go they got these nuclear submarine sputter all import and basically they come to the conclusion if you wanted to all these nuclear prom for the so be it could go away 'cause we could do come back all of and stop and get in their tracks he would be over a preemptive war which saw all this catastrophe we all have linger man trying to be bomb back to the stone age were attempting idea that would be and really attractive port was the potential to knock it out the other side's weapons before they could use them rather than you care cities in other words you know like disarming your phone by shooting him again and the stain that sounds awful lot better than watching the holocaust to keep yourself safe doesn't it the ideal also work well with some of the policies that the new administration how about using nuclear weapons something that would be known as the counter for strategy on no cities policy i'm not for the last time something that was intended to make the people feel more safe about nuclear weapon use of the opposite effect in the stuff and circuitry swing the camera force idea now the weapons technology we had were allowed united states to target the weapons of the soviet union instead of their cities the truth is we would still targeted shitty stages when be the first option this was supposed to make people in cities think okay with united states is a elaine country which it isn't it would never targeted is to begin after one after all this will work to earn a you know the battle to the battlefield where belongs and they'll only be using them against the military forces of the other side there were two proms with this wanda people quickly realized that that makes them much more usable as horrible as it sounds the idea that you would kill millions of innocent men women and children in the city is is a deterrent if you think will which issues nuclear weapons again soldiers west weapons are supposed to be used against so does that make him a lot easier to start using them an habiger want control would you do used the big weapons on cities doesn't even matter snub at a future she resumed in the military capacity the other problem is savvy people realize something really quickly if the point of using these weapons and targeting them at the enemy's missile was used to hit the missile so that those missiles going at the united states you have to shoot them before the other side shoots bearers you know only hit the budget anti missile locations and launchers and silos after the missiles are gone but that means you strike first the dynamic was turning into won like a old west gonna fight word to go on for years in a draw on three and everybody's worried eventually the news situation where one performs the other side and drawn on to you as long as it disables the other person were killed them before they kill you are you going to really question the moral issues which led to a whole need to develop was called the second strike capability in other words something that said we can kill you even if you kill loss after you kill lost or we can damage or nafta that this whole thing is worth another word for deterrents to work you would eventually have to have something that robert mcnamara kennedy's in the former head of four more for corporation would develop be called it assured destruction today we often call a mutual assured destruction or mad for short but this was a possibility fully understood nineteen fifties he was the muscles that turned into the kind of reality where people would start talking about the potential with images of all sides have a doomsday device and avenge to the soviets would have something called the dead hand what the exact same rationale powering it we choose we really don't wanna have to kill you acting skill boss but it might prevent you from killing us in the first place it we do have something like that this whole question of how money to turn the other side in the weirdness of the entire mental construct of nuclear deterrents there is going to enter the doctor strangelove phase of weirdness during this era where they will have debates over whether or not you should ever were spawned weaving nuclear response the deterrence bales herman khan who is also so sue the rand corporation who will be one of the main inspirations often cited for the doctor strangelove character you will talk about the red button your them well the nuclear launch by the metaphorical won and he will say to people i have a real discussions about whether or not that nobody should actually be connected to anything now he says it's important at the other side thinks it's connected to something but the idea was that yes somehow nuclear deterrence bailed on the other side launch their nuclear missiles review the humane thing to do we do not respond right you've lost the war are ready there's no reason to kill them too our shipowner herman cohen did not feel that way he deftly top to bottom should be connected to something nonetheless he was so showing us the kinds of conversations apiece the rooster having read the source quest is it will come up their academic in nature theoretical until then not but tensions begin to spike after the piano summit the last line kennedy will ever say face to face to nikki the crew sheriff his response to some of the things were said at that meeting what he walks out and says twenty be a cold winter the right the situation berlin will get extremely serious one point you will be what an american and nato tanks facing off against soviet tanks in over the dividing line between east berlin in west berlin in the soviets will put up walls to stop flight need the whole thing becomes a nightmarish disaster and problems are narrowly averted the tensions will also increase to the point we're both sides do away with the an official moratorium i have a nuclear weapons were never restricting worry about fallout know the approval of tampering damper on testing these things and boom everybody starts up again both because if you're going to have tension sky rocket boy you gotta make sure that your nuclear deterrent for mange credible on that means testing the same time was agree with send a message the nanny state will test ninety eight nuclear weapons accorded don webster in amman for in nineteen sixty two in a month about sending a message because again and figure out whether we're sure not after the ninety first test in the u. just going around the soviets have the wrong way of rattling sabers they like really really big sabers and cruise ship tells this physicists including andras sakharov that he wants a hundred megatron balm remember the united states is test that was the radiological pork and doubtless fifteen megatons council bravo and when you'd try to figure out maybe tens are no mathematician but but the the big split of the power grows exponentially you can't just say each story megatons of the fifteen toast voices powerful it doesn't look like especially with things like that for more radiation port which is highly under renewed and destroyed a whole book on that that says for the entire time nuclear weapons been around everyone is underestimated the most dangerous part of them which is the fires that they start because they're hard to measure single study that she studied the blast sold as scary as they are that's all based on blast evidence according to lean eating they're probably many times more deadly than that wants fires taken into account on the sakharov is supposed to head with crew chef and oppenheimer truman moment by moment with a physicist the real deep thinker which thinking about the ramifications of his creation goes to crew chef to try that alum maybe we should make one hundred make a ton bomb remember it might take a lot more god for someone to do in that system than in saying the united states context because before cruise ship was stalin and telling style something like this can be bad for your health so already you see that it's much more open situation but sakharov goes to crozier fences maybe we should explode this bomb to jeopardize future relations in the test ban treaty is that we were on officially having work force and gets told this by cruise ship court leave politics too i swear the specialist we have to get doctor policy from a position of strength our opponents don't understand any other language i'd be a jellyfish and not chairman of the council of ministers to buy listen to people like sakharov and hope of course anyone who growth and around blue note automatically that that's exactly the sort of thing we're in u. s. was said about the soviets can't be jelly cushion for them the words from chef understands the way it's all played just as eisenhower did when these people would make a match your values on our list to go to the game they played but the game is different than sakharov at least manages to talk crew shoved down for more one hundred megatron bomb to fifty maybe to mourn because of all you really are trying to do if you're a rattle of big saber fifty megatons is as big as anybody would want even for intimidation purposes now slightly over fifty megatons might've been just about half a crucial on it but as john was gathers writes quote even so we was big enough the single largest blast human beings have ever detonated or have cents on the planet the flash was visible six hundred miles away the fireball dow corning somebody you saw a quote was powerful and arrogant like jupiter it seemed to stock the whole earth into it unequaled in candice continues the mushroom cloud rose forty miles into the stratosphere the island over which the explosion took place was literally level not only of smell but also of rocks so that look to one observer what the name in skating rink the entire spectacle was quote fantastic on real supernatural and quote one estimate calculated get is right on the basis of this test is crew sheds full one hundred megatron balmy been used instead the resulting fire storm within golf tourney read the size of the state of maryland and co surely nobody would ever use weapon like that but calculations can go awry what do you wear pink up attention during the nineteen sixty one sixty two period corruption attempted to do something then if this were really a board game of the kind i would enjoy applying to our gilmour bore we're doing more complicated version of something like we asked what they have also moved what the stakes of something like a tsar bomba en castle bravo on all the small time megatron bombs involved it's hard to see how people could justify the worst case scenario but under the pre nuclear rules he crushes makes a move is so bold but the record of the people that think this is the kind of thing the key to mer where pete haitians a gambler they got him in trouble after this period with the other people in russian leadership will have some say in the matter because there was recklessness to it but my goodness if you're really watching the game instead of life you have to admire the chutzpah when nobody's looking cruise ships also ballinger problems he's got one fell swoop by secretly beginning to pull it nuclear weapons on to the island of cuba in many ways it's a brilliant idea but all hinges on a single very slender reading you could see why maybe his cohorts taught him a gambler or reckless because that reed was you're gonna be able to get the missiles into cuba and activated ready to go before the u. s. knows they're there because the u. s. finds out the entire plan falls apart when the stakes are global thermonuclear war how are you comfortable changing the plan on such a narrow slender reed and i just that it's not like the u. s. easy paying attention there's been a conventional arms buildup going on in cuba now for months to the u. s. is watching it's become a political issue your midterm elections in november back in september when i'm on the half ago the rumblings were so loud about possible nuclear weapons the kennedy issue a public statement showing strength unresolved no typical cold war rhetoric and roll why in the sand and told us so be it would be the most grave ramifications if anyone duty to god that ending kennedy went publicly and privately to the soviet diplomat says and i'm gonna put off into what is the lightning owner we're not going off into weapons all just imagine how we felt we could also madge how much gasoline has now are crude around the situation when kennedy finds out the she'd lied to and that his opponent to charged him with being naive and saying you're putting the country's security risk in the so bitter put nuclear weapons on an island when he finds out that's exactly what to don there's reason to this crisis begins at such an intense level from the very first made a mess because the stage is set for it on october sixteenth in the morning a nineteen sixty two kennedy's advisers ring in photographs the photograph shown the construction missile sites on the wing cuba the u. s. and i'm watching we're activity involving the russian handlers off loading ships under the suspicion but due to photos and from devore was worst fears and that's that we've seen a very short period of time kennedy c. i. a. advisers thought maybe within the week you were growing gap operational missiles ninety miles urso off the u. s. coast the minute the kennedy realizes the reality of what he's looking at dynamic starts in the back of your head hey mental stopwatch should begin taking because the partial start to mount instantaneously many historians point out the kennedy was handing out a bestselling book to his subordinates during this period you probably read it was barbara talk amongst the guns of august the book of course it deals with the run up to the first world war which really about a dynamic and at the beginning the dynamic your decision makers will charge of making moves on the great chessboard they have some control making two things but that somewhere along the way all of the forces and elements in the fall beginning to turn the decision makers and historical passengers as well or just along for the ride and find the range of their possible decisions and moves so curtailed many times they appear to have no good options when kennedy was fascinated by this dynamic apparently and thought he saw elements of the come into play over berlin already now he was about to take part something very similar although from a time constraint that run up to the first for war to come on then everybody thought they had no time to react kennedy we're gonna have no where near ramallah because the move by crew chef to put missiles in cuba makes the next move the united states is it they'll do anything whatever to khrushchev is optional progress is farther the u. s. has to do something in the dome of how long we have to do what the fog of war will drive this crisis dynamic 'cause right away the first thing everyone wants to know these are any of these missiles anywhere ready to be fired and we found that those missile sites what missile sites have and we found that or their warheads on the island how many is there more stuff on the wing the two companies peace critical uncertainties is one thing the u. s. policymakers know for sure and then use that every moment you wait the situation is getting worse regardless of what might be now on the ground into books will know that we know will be worse for us tomorrow and that puts an incredible hi i'm pressure on all these events the attitude is that even if you sleep things are getting worse to the need to move into something is exerting a huge force on the people who have to make these decisions in the way that's all the problem up without creating a bigger problem in this case the bigger problem would be world war three and as the president laughter mind his advisers the other side has a hostage what if they decide to kill their hostage if we do something to solve our problem in cuba remember the hostages west berlin ms kennedy will also point out to his advisers trading cuba for west berlin is not a good trade in the europeans definitely wouldn't think it was a good trade within hours of scene photos of the construction sites in cuba president kennedy calls a meeting of what will be known as the x. com truly just a group of handbag national security advisers along with some other influential voices that can anyone hear from including the attorney general's who happens to be his younger brother robert has been with advise ridiculous about thirteen of them they convene the first meeting before noon on october sixteenth and they will begin to discuss how we react to crew shows move right to balls and u. s. a score here we do at one point kennedy were mine the purchase of funds we're talking about the potential for strikes on american urban centers they can create eighty to one hundred million casualties she says she talking about the destruction of the country not to mention any casualties else we're in the world has there ever been a more porn series of conversations ever and if you're in a position when john f. kennedy is in the situation with that kind of responsibility hanging over your head in the judgment of history now to deal with wooden shoe want to cover your ass somehow kennedy without telling any of the purchase of guns in the exco meetings taped them his brother man i'm that no one else did about ten years later when this all came out we found out that several presidents found taping system and useful you can see why it upsets among the participants in the exco meeting to fulfill the traded the same time so i can get from the gods for historians because you can be a fly on the wall and literally hearing that the secondary conversations in the coffin of people coming and going through the door as though you're there when at least one aside in this crisis period the wall last almost two weeks is making the most important decisions in world history what's crazy when you listen to it is it's a combination of boring it may not need it can put you to sleep and subject matter that makes the hair on the back in your neck stand up because it sounds again officer need even during the most stressful period nobody screaming yelling and it sounds quite a traditional business meeting aboard directors but when you listen to what they're saying and at one point in the we talking about casualties there are at second world war levels in an afternoon with stakes that are a you would love to wish him a perfect world that was the only thing decision makers took into account how do we avoid no casualties on that scale of destruction that apocalyptic but he wasn't the only thing on their minds on either side it's funny because the more than fifty years and now looking back on those we can have them in for more perspective because all of the individual concerns of the air rock if they did in importance but it's not our dignity existence weaver and concerns the only concern from that period that matters to us now is that they avoid we're war three because imagine how differ more time today would be at the failed in that but for them there's a slow things acting upon their choices gary big things and very small things at least one man for marsh perspective i mean some of this is driven by john f. kennedy's political reality in the november midterm elections that seems not today if something like that and influenced in a global thermonuclear war is history turned out can you imagine what the verdict of history would be not unless this is why those people like the albert einstein to question our ability to live with these weapons will still playing the game and the old rules because you get into situations like this no one should do you can always get out after a day or two kennedy's considering four options to do with the construction sites in cuba option number one is an air strike against them option averting was a general series of air strikes across the island much bigger affair but it would help you deal with all the unknowns and we'll get rid of the defense is so that when you had to fly over four times would be easier option three is a blockade at the u. s. navy surrounding island and say we're honoring a clear weapons and missiles rami on the wet let me be more in action before is it general invasion cuba by the u. s. military now while he's considering his options mr warship this is also part of the crisis dynamic but you think you're on top of the current situation were you had these medium range nuclear weapons into because they've measured the size of the launching pad areas they figured out the surfer medium range weapons and although some may find more muscle construction sites as they fly over with more you to work on us and klein's and these are built for bigger muscles are going to be what are called intermediate range ballistic missiles now on the island to which will reach almost all of the united states the soviets don't have autonomy missiles that can go from russian territory to american territory but they have a time of the medium range stuff that's been threatening your per decade now that's what they're moving into cuba as one military guys will say giving him a quantum leap in terms of their ability to you cannot states kennedy will point out though this is a temporary thing they're building these missiles you know every day they can reach from russia to the united states on a matter of time doesn't really matter fin missile that destroys washington dc started in moscow or cabana but ratchet up the pressure even more eventually kennedy decides nobody calls the limited action three limited purpose he's going to put a blockade around cuba so that it doesn't get any worse he's essentially going to for all the car down and tell crochet bitches play now the problem was such a move is that it does nothing to deal with the missiles the jury on the island and then everyone's face in this crushing time problem and pressure with because no one knows when they're gonna be operational we do about those kennedy want to take them out against iraq had you would without potentially prompting were were three m. enough russians workin' on those weapons with the children to calmly russians can you tell an air strike and not prompt were worth three or just the taking of berlin which would do the same thing on october nineteenth canopy goes into a meeting with the joint chiefs of staff his big military dodgers the heads of the army in the air force and marines and the navy and tell them his plan to do a blockade would know where strikes and all the sudden it's apparent to have a huge problem on your hands because the military disagrees and i don't think no we're going too far arnold and to say that it looks a little like which were seen at the end of the truman in ministrations strange they had with the military over who controls the stop where the lines of demarcation between civilian and military control are seems like the mistook a hiatus for two terms of eisenhower the general president and now with the kid you screwed up the barricades and screwed up the piano summit in the weakling this is how the military look to the sky this warner roman joined she says staffer think said he was a skipper for small patrol bore me they didn't respect him and he was starting to numbers begged him very much and when they heard his plan was a blockade with no strikes against the missile bases that were read under construction they pushed back hard the push back was led by air force general curtis lemay and as many of kennedy's biographers indicate kennedy seem to be intimidated by law made those who wouldn't be author michael dobbs right to live in court anecdotes about le may became the stuff of air force legend crude and petulant he used to shelley's contempt for his colleagues on the joint chiefs of staff by belching loudly and leaving the door open when he visited their private toilet with a crew chief asked him to extinguish is ever present cigar to avoid igniting an explosion on board a fully fueled bomber the mate growled you wouldn't dare asked for policy recommendation on cuba he replied simply for high yet in court or uses words like to be a fly on wall and couriers who may or tells president kennedy or he needs to be in danger tonight now hurt per hour our our her or what are our what went on for rio write him out why would really and law don't worry go and you well what are what the on the up with new major while we hope to have had a slight i have no life finally the land where a lot of them while they are so let it go and vote for perot the law he were alive and i really have whoa that that guy all the view that it to show you you lose used to hip-hop consultant home sue the tummy muscles he'd leash accused policy he learned in getting him sinking sinking idea of writing or hurt hurt for hurt our power to work for you know larry oh i've a whoa bit a lot of the head and the lip and right now you li she you talking about him bad mouthing him not knowing the kennedys been taping the meeting in the tape has stopped and that's all on tape to you the subtly story sheldon in stern put talking about the defense secretary another person leaving leaving the military had scored mcnamara and taylor departed leaving lum a shoe print wheeler bind to talk as the door closed away they believed from crying here is the remaining she's voiced their disdain for civilian control the military and left little doubt who they thought to be in charge of military decision making the hidden taper koresh course continue to turn and cool in their defense these people have two things to worry about wanting is keeping the united states safe the other is making sure that if the worst case scenario happens with president kennedy called the final failure or nuclear war the job of these generals a military leaders is just beginning they have to win the nuclear war so everybody's trying to do the same thing the president is pretty sure that if he follows the advice of his military leaders he's been engaging in world war three the military leaders are pretty convinced that if present in the continued on the course he's on the gun abhor war three anyway and the u. s. is going to be a disadvantage when fighting it stirring sheldon munster and said quote after the meeting the president told is a dave powers benny was started by la maze cocky certainty the cruise ship would do nothing in the u. s. bombed the missile sites until the lot of russians court these brass hats have one grated damage in their favor j. f. k. fumed if we listen to them and do what they want us to do none of us will be alive later to tell them that they were wrong in equal all the modern historians will say that the x. com take to change the way this crisis has been viewed it's amazing weekly year ago the john f. kennedy like eisenhower and truman before him but for my much more difficult position maybe pushed back against in this case unanimous military opposition the joint chiefs of staff for unanimous the kennedys idea blockaded with no air strikes was bad his ex con adviser's to civilian by shoo shoo fluctuated interviews unchanged were mostly shoe or the kennedy was being far too weak the money finely informed a few members of congress to the biggest big leagues in his own democratic party is intrinsically you crazy i just do that and what did you nothing is more long alliance with the military want you this forty five year old guy defied all bomb every time i start thinking the individual dole mandarin history i remind myself that there are examples like this where the odds on favorite thing to do would be to have a president follow the advice of his military advisers all of my to take it for things to go sideways is for somebody to have nearly done that it's a little hard to believe isn't it now at this point in the story when things are getting very scaling the world is aware of this the russians themselves are not completely sure what's going on in the united states kennedy has won his people and a note to the russian ambassador of explaining what's about to happen in goes on national television to tell the world the united states is found nuclear missiles in cuba this is a big problem the soviet to get more urgent couple of hours before kennedy speech the nature lives can have to do with cuba at that point the soviet leadership got together and as depalma the silly goose nuts off pointed out cold crocheted shoes pants and go to because although sonny was clear that that slender little read upon which he had built this audacious reckless gamble of his the parliament in states not finding out about the mistletoe they were operational that slender reed broke and as alexander for sentiment to make enough to write court khrushchev let the frustration of the moment shell to the man in front of him most of whom had experienced the russians civil war and all of whom had ignored the second world war and survive stalin true shove bared his soul this tragic he said that they had come so close to having a deterrent force in cuba so close to making this kind of a nightmare on imaginable now are not only was a u. s. invasion of cuba possible but so was a nuclear exchange involving the soviet union nevertheless crew shot was determined to show resolve quote they can attack us he said and we shall respond articulating what was on everyone's mind in the hall he added this money into the big war and co kennedy told the world in his speech about the weapons in cuba said he was going to launch a blockade which they call the quarantine 'cause blockade is an act of war to a quarantine of future weapons and then asked crew chef in a global forum as the world was now awakening to the fact they were in the middle of a potential thermonuclear crisis to step back from the brink and try to work for the future to avoid armageddon ira peregrine or but our preliminary it uh leonard i'm right or a provocative director were open and they were relations between our two nations i call on him credit to abandon that are her robe nomination and in your life in start up random hours on ray and it ran on the history of man he had an opportunity now roll back the new but destruction by returning to intimate or were that it had no need they need a lot i don't know door and withdrawing the weapon from cuba by refraining from any action which will ride or even the present writer and then i heard that the d. n. a thirty people are permanently what can you see the toms beating she she dared to me and will have moved up its alert status to defcon three i'm will have bombers in the year which they can do all the time anyway to a degree but everything begins to go on heightened alert ships begin moving to the caribbean there's already maneuvers underway with the very suspicious code name off let's castro spelled backwards i wonder how many people that fooled and the mechanisms of war that barbara tuchman would've recognized as beginning to shift indeed during nineteen fourteen is the wheels begin to ground toward that particular blueprint for armageddon things began to follow a parallel paths on october twenty second nineteen sixty two kennedy's speech to the world you two things pretty much instantaneously the first thing he did was confirm with the soviet for re suspecting and as to the u. s. and founder missiles the second thing the speech did was he in one fell swoop inform the world that there might be a nuclear war in the very near future i'm fascinated by this richard if you're some sort of analogy for something that might be used disruptive you know every single day should pile on the pressure to war civilization offering work with kids society together as any nuclear war during the kennedy administration i thought what we do the same thing all the same thing we do the same thing he found out this week there might be nuclear war be very similar test case scenario i would think the only other thing i can think of maybe that would compare in terms of ten chile shaking the foundations upon which we you don't run on the street and smash each other hand with a bottle on the alien showed up right if it is like in all those movies the giant no mall typhoid ball field signs a spacecraft park themselves or varsity having the same sort of shaking us for civilization all foundation or route would happen nonetheless if you thought you might not wake up tomorrow and most other people around you were having the same sort of thought has that changed things on the ground in your lou world that is the impact the water cooler discussions work the next day how does that change your travel plans for the near future ravine there are plans for example even for the most important in the society take the president his family to get out dodging case nuclear war happens and jackie kennedy will famously she she mourned the right to wage war that if it was gonna happen she want to die with the children in washington with the president now they were even plans once again the shall issue how real this is what to do to get the president out of the white house released in the white house with the white house is new don't go in there apparently would like you know acetylene torches and and and get him out and bond with little radiation subaru quick michael dobbs as an apostle him into helicopter for evacuation they give you an idea of the stakes here and what people are forced to contemplate like bertrand russell most of the scientists it's an imagine your family dying in front of you agonizingly law you yourself do when everyone you know when your community these have talked to people almost never happens i would also suggest that there's a huge difference between when people worry about eighty true nuclear war versus a farming were read today in the twenty first century when it comes to nuclear war a loan attacked by a terrorist group so single bomb goes off in a single study that would be a nightmarish disaster don't get me wrong but it will shake the foundations of the society because the entire society woman turned and help the police deal but what if it's twelve cities at once they didn't you or in the case of the nuclear war plan right now we nineteen sixty two moscow's slated for like a hundred nuclear weapons on that c. b. all along see you wonder how long did you use before society turns into one of those in a soda doggy dog ever restart readable another story ammunition in the canned goods and people start beginners know what you're not the gold of course i'm not going to work to morley when does it start to break down under the pressure in the u. s. lots of formula to think you're right it was the biggest huh in the country are massing of troops and the second world war begins to move down the floor encased in use for cuban invasion all the food and all the canned goods store sweeper not the shells mean it's a lot of people courted who remembered this time period as the will we be alive next week time period i'm bob dylan famously said you'd work quickly on the song he was writing at the time to see which we would meet with finish it already has much down on paper before tomorrow maybe the most poignant line i've ever heard in the missile crisis as it's called was secretary state dean rusk uneasy dropped him off and said see you in the morning the circling the sheldon and stern by the water and in rosters is really you know unflappable sort of emotionally stable guy said i hope so c. n. morning i hope so initiated into demanded the time he says contemplating it later the bad guy he said an encore knew that was the emotional equivalent of screaming the first major crisis moment appears right after the u. s. establishes this quarantine with their ships on the first of the soviet ships approach it it's like two dozen of them and the world is no gloom to this in real time i'm not sure who's ever been anything like this in the coverage of news where are underway now street course the next edition of the newspaper to be delivered back in the data be several daily addition to nightly editions they're waiting outside places like times square leading the electronic lit up crawled on the side of the buildings and watch all three u. s. broadcast networks cubist the nineteen sixty two equivalent wall to wall coverage pokey little maps behind walter cronkite with little paper should counters occasionally be moved closer and closer to that line of quarantine even the president and his people watching this coverage to everyone is so holding their breath that seems to me this is quite a bit different and something like a word or morose famous live radio broadcast from london is the bombs are dropping on the city during the blitz because unless she lived in london this didn't have a direct impact on your wife we're as you could be in the heart when did the united states are for them out of the heartland of the soviet union or for that matter send for you are just about anywhere what you're watching here or in real time may determine whether or not you wake up some warning this week with the children grow up and have a future i mean this is the stakes are scorecard jewel maginnis h. w. brands point on he's writing a book about so political theory but he points out how this changes the entire equation from anything we've ever had in previous history grade school when people had labored jordan just an goals in the pre nuclear era they could console themselves with the knowledge that though they might not live to see their objectives realized their children or grandchildren might have the goals were beyond human grasp each succeeding generation could at least approach a bit closer than the one before the invention of nuclear weapons change the situation entirely now he writes there existed real possibility that the whole human experiment would be canceled midway in that event not even future generations because they wouldn't be any would know how things turned out onto the nuclear cloud the meaning of human existence green murkier than ever end quote if we were still trying to today reach the standards of living that they had back then because we were still working our way back up from the rubble were war three would any of the concerns these people had to today more important seemed worth it mingus is something that exposes a bunch of things were you could if you were grading humankind on how well they were doing adapting to their weapons technology you give them enough because they've overlooked a seat fundamentals for example as this crisis unfolding just now the screen to the participants do something can even communicate in real time one or more on john f. kennedy to talk to kerchief when you think about all the time they had in the nineteen fifties and the spirit and the threat level rising don't you think one of these people theorizing about war nuclear war we like to wear remove be like don't you think somebody listen we have to have a hotline we're in a lot talk to the opposite number is a crisis dynamic starts but they didn't in the mirror and there were we could expect world leaders who were ratcheting up the attention toward nuclear war to be able to text each other crozier been kennedy for communicating to the letters the diplomatic equivalent to snail mail don't take half the day from the time no one side writes a letter dated hand delivered to the other side after tabling it has to be translated them and ready to half a day a lot can happen in any real time crisis in half a day as the soviet ships approach to quarantine line to do speak face off the u. s. strategic air command alert level was raised to defcon two the first time ever in a public assurances are to be believed the only time since defcon one is all out nuclear war by the wire soviet strategic arms experts stevens a low dose as dead at the same time soviet forces strategic forces were moved up to high alert for the first time ever is well some are you have in many theaters around the globe with these two militaries the two most powerful military saw world history and their allies rubbing up against each other militarily meaning the arctic the mural mean it is his every word asia over japan the potential for something bad happened on intentionally sky rockets so all of the area bulls by the way is welcoming think about how much easier this whole thing must've been for gala kennedy before the world knew about it no every press outlet in every big city was small town america not to mention the rest of the world as a headline related to the decisions you're currently considering right now you were feeling the pressure before the media combined the public opinion combined with the political realities in democracy is all over the western world can criticize you an offer alternatives to cause all kinds brahms mean the stress level becomes so acute that it would be harder thing to find a moment in human history we're human beings on such a y a platform really not one place one time it everywhere have been under discussion pressure just my opinion but normally it's localized it if you're about to be taken over by the mongols in your city you feel every bit as worried but it's just in your city this is everybody holding a collective breath and you wanna variable the women are tomato up the rand corporation ten years before this time that he had were present when the letter like x somebody like fidel castro the forbid revolutionary who fully seems ready to die for the cause you're if necessary he's pretty gonna how would he puts pressure on crucial like the allies on the west to put pressure on kennedy he's our guy who can foresee that this was really show but the cuban missile crisis would be talking a lot more about the cubans what's more about controlling your weapons technology and crucial apparently has to sell castro something very similar to one told mile years before which is we know we didn't get into the struggle against imperialism just to die as the line of soviet ships apparently keeps moving toward the quarantine the media has the countdown going to mean at how tense this is everybody's biting their nails including kennedy in his advisers in the white house is the ship's approach the wind is what's gonna happen in a confrontation see how quickly get back in a control everybody's really worried in his book and unfinished life about john f. kennedy president of biographer robert ballard corpse robert kennedy the present brother who was in the room with them and they're all sitting there waiting for this in a crisis moment to occur as the countdown continues and delicate courting robert kennedy rates quote the president's tension was reflected in his appearance in physical movements court this was the moment which we hope would never calm bobby rogue later quote the danger ring concern that we all felt like a cloud over us all these few minutes with the time of greatest were read by the president his hand went up to his face and covered his mouth any closed his fist his eyes were tense almost gray we just tear each other across the table was the world on the brink of all holocaust and had we done something wrong i felt we were on the edge of a precipice and it was it was no way off and go and then maybe get a couple messages and relatively quick succession the dirtier something's happening i'm on the season maybe the shooter slowing down and i'm sure what may be in maybe they're stopping and maybe some of them or even turning around this is the moment where the the air goes on in the room like a balloon and secretary state dean rusk is supposed to send you know we have a game was brought up in georgia were two people have a staring contest in elementary you lose can somebody has to blink needles will be other guy just blinked this moment will go down in history as the timing of the guy just blinked and kennedy faced down come chauvinism you contest of wills in a pub last second crucial trading ships around no we now know that that's not what happened the people of the time didn't know that as michael dobbs points on the great lawn he say crew shanti indeed going to bloody blinked thirty hours before and it took that long for washington to see it kirshenbaum actually made the decision not to challenge the quarantine with any ships carrying nuclear missiles or weapons pretty darn soon after kennedy announced the quarantine but he didn't make that public knowledge he kept rattling sabers and threatening to run the blockade in the pushy envelope the entire time all the while knowing he had no intention of running a particular risk historians of long deferred on how are you should see this move by crucial not openly challenged the blockade we'll still go through with ships that don't carry banned material in the u. s. and the nation to play is over consensual day of self convenience to avoid now that they've gotten off the crisis hook temporarily having things get out of control again in but what historians will say that this is a crushing humiliation the crucial to have to back down like this especially at the symbolic lead and a kennedy and letters on a backing down and apparently crushes military adviser coming to see him similarly challenge any of case military adviser see kennedy now what respect all sides so that's going into this but there are other historians the wall portrayed is more like a counter move very similar to the ones can be used in making the ones that say i'm not gonna be the one store nuclear war but so many of my acted choices would do so on and do more of a passive choice right i'm not going to invade cuba on that point to launch attacks against the cuban missile sites and discuss trouble quarantine your move mr krishna krishna says i'm not a jealous of blockading the polo shipped back but i'm gonna continue to work on actually we double my efforts to speed up the work on the nuclear weapons and missiles that are already in cuba your turn mr kennedy now we get to this point story where i can help but think about the young quantifiable variable that is the human element again and little things that would be so hard to model when the old game theory is things like sleep and how you quantify lack of sleep these people are putting in twenty hour days now every day do not eating will mean john f. kennedy's bad back is supposed to problems so much of the vienna and some with it may be enclosed how things went okay we're not talking about one person now the situation we're talking about the collective frazzled list of everyone on all sides intrusion isn't leaving his office you sleeping on his couch in his clothes day after day after day think about the little things to you would even consider blush you were in that situation all these people that have not a single spearman in their day still have to wonder about how my getting my family out of the serious nuclear war happens my wife has ten thousand prodigies colony back as she came to grab and evacuated but when it meets people have all these worries the tub is just a single individual even if it was the leader of our country would think well that's a variable the system can work around what's happening to everyone or wants all focusing time you can qualify you can say it affected him stripper shed more towards bad decisions because how would you know but you can reliably say you compare the performance of the system all the individual together working in on denouement had to how they're operating collectively by day ten of the missing in diminishment how long can people the situation go before you start to make really poor decisions more for fatigue and stress overload reasons and anything else again if you're the rand corporation tried them on how things are gonna go on real-world situation what's the value to plug in for x. for that and then there's the ultimate variable in this equation the one everyone recognized is it so obvious the two human beings who have the power or authority will unleash nuclear war when fact if things go wrong in the near future had the responsibility to unleash it kennedy incursion of i'd like to be in their shoes i'm in a sociopath much like the idea of having nuclear weapons and all that that entails that's not the kind thing most people look forward to having to use and it creates a huge monstrous issue might imagine anyone running for high office especially the place and the united states as a sort of implied that promised that they can get the job done an understanding that the job of being the president is going to require decisions on your part they we'll get people killed it's unavoidable and chilling bad guys reasonable and terrorism those sorts of things there's a lot of people that could sleep very well at night you without the resignation oprah mayor becomes a different situation we're thinking that maybe the next week you're going to have to the issue orders that would frighten millions and millions of non combat is some women and children old people and even animals and always in your opinion is all wanting to these decisions but a lot for one human being to handle it to last for the society to handle but because as we discussed earlier this is not how war that was seen to be something 'cause of the way the technology work could be a group think decision was something that had to be made by a single individual who can handle that how war and i don't even mean unknown trustworthy sandra demjanjuk people like some terrible tyrant of old but more the stress level and if you get lucky with the people that you have there at any particular time what made you think that over the long all you're going to continue to be lucky this is bertrand russell's comment about walking the tightrope for a couple hundred years truman david eisenhower did it for two terms in our in nineteen sixty two the end of the year is starting to look like a person walking across that tight rope is going to fall how'd you like to be the person that had to push the button if that happens and as a part of me that likes to imagine that this is like the ultimate failsafe mechanism in the system beau slash human beings who actually have to do the equivalent of pushing the button maybe the last minute they were bow they say will do what i will destroy humankind and becomes the waterfall into the movie were from the seat ceded to wicked man about that last minute humanity one out like the human version of that red but not connected to anything that herman common mentioned the problem is is most of these situations by the time they get as far as you would have to get the four people were thinking about pushing the button are our peoples controls by that time that's what the barber tuchman were war one book is about and that's what begins to happen and the story too because after krischer polls look shipped back to the quarantine continues we'll call most missiles all the murray on the island they start writing letters to each of the crucial thing kennedy back to start and twenty third but they continue on and a fascinating you can watch the tone change with the ebb and flow of the crisis and as the stress level an alert status is and progress toward an invasion of cuba may be wretched stop you begin to see both these politicians trying to find a way out both of them are seen their options constrained in an open door to getting out of this mess is closing and their ability to control the situation slipping out of their hands and they know what by october twenty fifth day after the non face off at the quarantine line cruise ship is getting all sorts of information that makes him think an invasion of cuba is imminent the president of united states as this clock on offer the missiles are continuing worked on in the pressure caused by that crushes gonzalo clock invasion cuba is imminent we know you bought that and he knows something that not only does kennedy not know but no one in the west new until the soviet union fell this record could be made available to historians the early nineteen nineties cushion you that they were battlefield nuclear weapons operational on cuba put in place to destroy any landing imagine like the d. day landings of the second world war is the defenders had nukes the other small each one of the signs on route sixty percent of the power of the hiroshima bomb or something like that they have several of them imagine the carnage something like that would've created and how you back out of that problem in avoid war war three victims that route the persian kennedy began to purina cuban missile crisis i like to call the haggling holding a hand grenade period 'cause both of these guys have to get a deal together for the forces driving them toward nuclear war become unstoppable on october twenty sixth and you're seasonal from krishna of that seems to propose the way out of this crisis now some historians who suggested this was a desperate note read nervously but not everyone agrees with that it's clear though the crew chef thinks that a invasion cuba's coming he worries that the military has taken over from j. f. k. and so he offers a compromise on cuba he makes the case to the only reason the weapons were put into been the first place used to deter us invasion easy to bahrain in what's that was the bay of pigs is azure c. i. a. is constantly harassing causing problems over there that's called operation mongoose in each right about that he says if you will publicly proclaimed that you will support anymore than you will invade the island will take the missiles out then he writes about the blockade in the ongoing crisis he says to kennedy and famous line which court if you've done this is the first deb stuart unleashing war will end evidently nothing remains for us to do but to accept his challenge of yours but if you've got washed command of yourself they realize clearly what this could lead to then mr president you and i should not now pull on the ends of the rope in which you have tied the knot of war because the harder you when i pulled the tiger the novel book tom the time may come when the snow is tight so tight that the person who tied it is no longer capable of and tying it and then i'll have to be caught what that would mean i need not explain to you because you yourself understand perfectly what dread forces are two countries possess therefore he writes if there is no intention of tightening is not thereby dooming the world to the catastrophe of thermonuclear war let us not only relaxed the forces straining on the hands of the rope let us take measures from tying the knot we're agreeable to this and cool so in the early evening of october twenty sixth nineteen sixty two the first ray of hope appears white before time runs out can these military advisers do not trust crucial dating d'souza ploy to gain more time to get his missiles operational let's remember the canadians misjudged the soviets in the past and these other people have been right so if you're kennedy you must think yourself maybe i'm wrong again at the same time if we look in a certain way kennedy had just received a personal letter an emotional letter some people describe it from the only other person who was actually in the same position he's in you can be the closest adviser to the person who actually has to push the button and it's not the same thing creature vanished into kennedy's dealing with and vice versa neither man it looks like wanted to have to do this the only way to stop this is by going to the other person also the wanna do this and say you were afraid to this comely can we call this off it must've been a certain mental sense of relief work under the sawdust and it may be nap time that's the promenade you see any x come take to kennedy striding get this done let's move along so long on the morning of october twenty seventh nineteen sixty two saturday october twenty seventh nineteen sixty two kennedy in his advisers will get together to discuss that either end and the ramifications until we get this deal them were we say will attack you when they get the missiles out these missiles but they haven't even publicly knowledge of there and everything begins to go wrong which is why they call this day last saturday like saturday starts with the press reported to the kennedy in the morning as he's been discussing last night's letter from crew chef this is a public statement by crushes my goma radio kind of thing we now just to the world the way out of the cuban missile crisis and insulin for your acts like the olive branch peacemaker type but the way out is not the same deal he offered kennedy the night before his way out is a much more difficult to deal for kennedy did you come should tell the world it will take those at the geese and missiles to the style and publicly now would it be basically says you know the things that ever briseno problem with will be removed from cuba i if they pledge not to invade cuba and if they get their own missiles on a turkey which yours close to wallace's cuba is to the united states boom there's no better example of that old adage that the light at the end of the total was instead an oncoming train because the bottom drops and everything it can he get to that he certainly can't do that before the timeline for your structure invasion runs out the reasons why he can't do it though other sorts of things that those people michael scientist would talk about how do we have nuclear weapons we have to have a one world government to you don't have multiple government's interacting with each other in these dynamics this is what they're talking about because came in these fine with true shows public proposal he wanted to get these missiles the crew shows issue must remove these missile from turkey key one of them out before this crisis even happen iraq sweet because cause trouble they should be one of them out but now the true sherr's report to deal kennedy can accept it without looking weak without looking like he's kind of willing to sell all the security of the surety an ally is to buy him some security in the americas looking like he is rewarding this move by crew chef to place missiles ninety miles off the u. s. coast the movies been vilified in the united nations for more than a week he's trapped by geo political dynamic it didn't they rose and egypt with understood the game is the same game it's always been but the consequences of making the wrong move in the game now are exponentially greater than anyone's ever dealt with before and that's what's changed everything can be strapped because he's playing a game by the old rules the ones to keep you from being able to stop thermonuclear war from breaking out and once again every time you think you can get any more pressure read how much can the people of the center of the story handle all day long you're gonna get more but the first briefings in the morning as the cia telling the president we think it was a medium range we saw the missile lassiter now operation on cuba home that he waited too long here's another piece of ammunition for the military hawks to use against you in arguments and then the military to both sides having rubbed up against each other all over the world on high alert for days now sparks are flying i mean the situation has come boss to pull an explosive as the one you're really dealing with slip through the fatal there are naval incidents involving soviet submarines of the u. s. navy chasing around you but they don't know that those submarines have nuclear torpedoes by the way there's a u. two reconnaissance plane up in the north pole on the arctic think it's off course and stranger were so we're space soviets and fighters to deal with it united states up in that territory appears and spider to deal with them with missiles armed with nuclear weapons over cuba there will be a low-level reconnaissance flight appliances hit with anti aircraft gun fire or ominously you to flying over cuba to keep tabs on those missiles that the u. s. absolutely has to do shot down by a surface to air missiles and battery on the pilots kill now you have blood in the situation not just that in order to sort of keep the military hot today several days ago kennedy had laid some lines in the sand saying this is one we will act don't worry along the lines in the sand was as if they shoot down the u. two plane up with the surface to air missile we will go take out the surface to air missiles now the military say guess what just happened we do about it the president's brother robert was at these meetings and with him in private talks all during this time would ripen into this moment the crisis was at this stage he felt that quote the noose was tightening on all of us from americans on mankind and at the bridges to escape are crumbling and cool the bridges to escape were crumbling kennedy would say in a couple of days but at this point there was a attack schedule for cuba to star with bombing raids hundreds of them set for monday or tuesday remember it's saturday his own advisers can make up their mind were to do in the current situation to kennedy will famously send his brother robert as a back channel negotiator i'm not telling anyone robber will go in washington dc to the soviet ambassador he'd gone to disobedient astor few days before during this crisis but was his normal combative feisty self this time so the masters is entirely different man was in front of him basically trying to explain the plate his brother was in it and i'm not sure pleat it's fair to say pleading not that there was a desperation in all this there are many descriptions from different people and views none of them are quite exactly the same i like the one you should take with them all assault as it from crushes on memoir scoring is ambassador to britain was having this conversation with candy incur shivering to quote robert kennedy looked exhausted one could see from his eyes idiot not slept for days he is also did not been home for six days and nights the president is in the grave situation robert kennedy said they say he said and he does not know how to get out of it we're under very severe stress in fact we're under pressure from our military to use force against cuba probably at this very moment the president is sitting down to read a message to chairman khrushchev gotta ask you mr dobrynin to pass president kennedy's message to chairman khrushchev through an official channels president kennedy implores chairman khrushchev to accept his offer and to take into consideration the peculiarities of the american system even though the president himself is very much again starting a war over cuba any reversible chain of events could occur against his will that is why the president is appealing directly to german crews jeffries help you liquidating this conflict with the situation continues much longer are the president is not short that the military woman overthrow him and seize power american army to get out of control pinnacle publisher of my nineteen seventy copy printed in boston a footnote in history drink your point out that this was obviously a misunderstanding of the soviet leader hun about the american system at work but truthfully you would've had to have like a military takeover of the government to which she basically with the joint chiefs want which they were unanimously opposed to the president's approach on this in order to get their way if they had gone to the president's opposition in congress for example and told them that they were unanimous that he was no absolute taking in the country to existential danger in the lead back to the u. s. media it would be like a giant veto over the present policy public opinion would have forced him to a different route and if they had gone that route it would've been simply because they knew the expert unanimously talking amongst themselves a decided that the president had literally put the country terrible danger and by the way while most histories portray kennedy is this why is sage guide to save the world in the situation by pushing back against at times unanimous cal ripken unit there are other views i mean mustering gary wills savages him essentially accusing him of being the waugh know who was responsible for this time bomb situation to begin with to the fact that he got you out of it means little since he's the one set the bomb and most points out that you why give anybody credit for this give it to crochet he's the guy willing to sop up the humiliation here so that we don't have nuclear war in go home with his tail between his legs and not tell anybody that he actually got the muscles and turkey were threatening my cynicism he can even claim credit for that or hardheaded other historians will use the same russia by saying which really mean to say is per share was completely are gonna buy at this time the u. s. military were crushed him especially not for the war we had a choice but to back down regardless it's hard not to look up to two individuals in this crisis for champagne kennedy and think regardless of the role in the airplane in getting us to hear what they did they took the most cautious route out over the historians rosary have agreed way of framing it you've said that if this was a gaming scenario in you could run a hundred times how many times when it turned out to have nuclear war how many times would turn out to maybe you forget about this if kennedy and listen to his military advisers cruise ship would back down the invasion of cuba somehow what happened and the cubans women freedom castro one go on all in the desert abortion scenarios worry can go but if you're going to the casino to butcher bets on something and the best case scenario is you get when a fortune the worst case scenario is it that little ball the roulette wheel when the wrong spot my goons take you on the back and shoo shoo in the head to even play their game would you despise cautiously dickinson was i know this is not a strategy that would get me we do percent of the worst case scenario so that i'll be happy if i can just avoid that incursions years from his ambassador basically to the u. s. government will give those missiles on turkey but to go quietly what did you did have a deal he's all over it because he was thinking he was in the good deal bad good anyway he's a little bit worried about letting kennedy know we accept the deal before this cuban invasion epithets oppose we are here so instead of spending a half day giving a letter to him that he goes right on radio moscow on for claims were in woodbridge dumping a deal and he keeps quiet the part that he needed to be kept quiet riot that the system that we have here of interaction between nations to each requires that certain things we don't in ways that help people save face and preserve their political opportunities and whatnot crew shove understands this except the terms and from this small madonna the tension begins to drop i mean kennedy said just a couple of days later he feels like a new man i mean i had a airstrikes really began tuesday mean they just they know how narrowly they dodged a bullet here and worth noting that when you went a few days later this according to biographer robert alec to congratulate him thank the joint chiefs of staff the heads of all the military entities in the country on on their held during the crisis they were mad admiral anderson said to him that we'd been hat the essential point was that this truly is a stalling tangled up with and thinks the soviet to get the missiles out of there even now general made for the air force called the worst to speak to the country's history and say we should still invade cuba defense secretary robert mcnamara says this reaction on the part of the joint chiefs of staff left kennedy court absolutely shocked and the court and accord staggering in reply in the crow within thirteen months and he will be dead and the vast majority of theories concerning his death including be traditional lone gunman theory all have very close connections to the island of cuba cushions loss of power that will be coming blossom be connected to cuba and this whole affair traditionally the idea was that is our part in the soviet leader should consider him to be a reckless gambler but it's more complicated than that nonetheless the only person which ticker round despite hundreds of assassination attempts for decades he just died recently his fidel castro and the history should be believed our of the national leaders making decisions during the cuban missile crisis he was the most in favor of using nuclear weapons castro's views would mellow with time and with the acquisition more insider information all was going on behind the scenes but this cuban missile crisis is the best case study that we've ever had awards like when the sword damocles begins to drop seventeen years after the debut of nuclear weapons it was a nuclear near miss initial huachuca learn from that american story marjorie sherwin calls it the biggest non event of the twentieth century which is interesting to be normally think of history positive turned this was don that happened but sometimes the most important things about the jewel void he writes quote in a century replete with unspeakable disasters the cuban missile crisis of october nineteen sixty two came terrifying we close to producing the greatest disaster of them all nuclear war the final failure the irony of this non event is that of guarding it was the most important event of the twentieth century so what is necessary balto learn how and why the united states in the soviet union nudged each other to the edge of the nuclear b. s. and understand how was suicidal plunged over it was avoided and co the lessons of the cuban missile crisis or controversy over and argued about and often depend on what political viewpoint or what country you come from it definitely scared leaders of these countries are maintaining crucial for bold change their tune in a number of different ways kennedy will revive some ideas from the eisenhower administration that never ever will kick in the pants to be implemented you know stuff to get past a whole lot of other problems while the nuclear spirit of all the sudden you move mountains in front of you and jenny cruise ship will start the process all of the creation of a nuclear framework we need to call it humankind's attempt to adapt to their weapons technology but framework for limitations on testing safeguards put in place to help ease the next crisis situation on hotline for example on the beginnings of an understanding that if you can you should begin to put controls on these weapons so that it'll spread everyone you begin talking about how to reduce the numbers of weapons to the two biggest holders have in their stockpiles in earnest into the soviet union on that last front it will be a failure for quite some time and that also is as a result of the cuban missile crisis famously soviet diplomat will say to an american he got away with it this time but don't ever get away with it again the soviets will waste to produce enough intercontinental ballistic missiles so that they are never on the short end of that numerical disadvantage again by the middle nineteen eighties so you will have more than forty thousand nuclear weapons the united states somewhere over thirty thousand seventy thousand plus nuclear weapons and that's just the two biggest our show and while adding a hotline he's going to help the next time there's a crisis situation one big safeguard that nobody can figure out how to implement is still a glaring problem the fact of the responsibility for you steal world balls around a single human being ronald reagan wrote after his presidency that that was the big realization every week in right when he became president did he then he alone troll these weapons and the amount of time he had to talk over decisions with people about using them was minuscule he wrote quote the decision to launch the weapons was mine alone to make we had many contingency plans for responding to a nuclear attack that everything would happen so fast that i wonder how much planning or we seem to be applied in such a crisis the russians sometimes catch submarines offer east coast with nuclear missiles that could turn the white house into a pile of radioactive rubble within six to eight minutes six minutes to decide how to respond to a blip on radar scope in decide whether to unleash armageddon how could anyone apply reason a time like that and co regained along with every other american presidents since eisenhower has had a man following him as she went from place to place the main carries a briefcase inside a briefcase is something nicknamed the football it's the nuclear codes for launching a nuclear attack in fact i've read that the person with the football is downstairs from the president while the president sleeps the timing in routinely and regularly to see how long it takes him to get from the bottom of the stairs up into the present from city to launch a nuclear attack if necessary the number of nuclear accidents is in the dozens those are called broken arrows by the united states the number all false alarms and near misses ears scary and the cuban missile crisis there been a couple particular scary ones perhaps the scariest since the cuban missile crisis but that's an opinion question is something known as the norwegian rocket incident that happened in nineteen ninety five that's four years after the soviet union fell when a rocket launch cop the soviet union off guard and there are higher ropes would in front of boris yeltsin leader of russia at the time their version of the football opened it up and asked him about the nuclear launch codes those who remember bore shields and remember that he was known to enjoy happy hour from time to time so maybe we can consider ourselves fortunate that either he hadn't enjoying it yet been confronted with this decision or maybe you the ad but he decided not to respond prompting the unusual thought my mind borsch yeltsin just save the world in nineteen ninety five followed by the scarier thought how the hell of the world and boris yeltsin's hands all to many people alive today or she'll sit in that error is in each ago and people don't think about nuclear war between the great powers very much anymore in fact it'll take about war between the great powers much anymore yet history which seemed to indicate it's the key danger we should worry about the only thing that could really kill pondered or a hundred and fifty million people in the next couple of years is an asteroid hitting the planet or nuclear war between the great powers what's more likely well it depends there's a lot of people who aren't you the nuclear weapons have kept the peace since the second were were that the reason we didn't have a war war three it affected everybody realize what would happen if we did there's a lot of argument about that and i'm not going to go into that someday but i would like to point out there are trip wires everywhere and this idea the nuclear war between the great powers to sort of a thing of the past ignores the fact that on the geopolitical three dimensional chess board it is currently being used by the great powers nuclear weapons are everywhere in fact just to name one potential flashpoint in this doesn't involve any of the many other countries now that have nuclear weapons but the united states his pledge to defend with nuclear weapons more than twenty five nations any one of whom if they're attacked lead to the same sort of dynamic in the crisis situation and the pressure and the lack of options the john f. kennedy nikita crucial face to the cuban missile crisis history does not teach you what the right moves in those circumstances are because the variables always change but it does teach you that you will have far less control over the situation and it appears that you will when you're looking at it in a detached the radical way that's why they call it a crisis right as i said human beings are seventy plus years into an ongoing experiment to see if they can adapt or evolved to handle their weapons technology so far so good but let's remember that we're a long way from the edges tight rope these may not even be the most powerful weapons we're creative enough to invent in the systems we have in place still out of human beings involved which is one of those variables that makes it tough to think that we can go for neither hundred one for your show years have the human story and with the words and they lived happily ever after alpine oh and one of our little shine benefits i'm doing these pollen counts for me has been good as the audience is grown we've been hearing from some of the people whose works we used to put 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