Episode: Show 57 - Kings of Kings II

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Show 57 - Kings of Kings II
From Biblical-era coup conspiracies to the horrific aftermath of ancient combat this second installment of the series on the Kings of Achaemenid Persia goes where only Dan can take it. For better or worse…

Dan Carlin's Hardcore History
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Automated Transcript (Why is this transcription so bad?)
today show sponsored by square space species we create a beautiful website log or online store go swiss based on common into the promo called hardcore check out to get ten percent off for sure but here's part two of 'em all try part series on the team in the persian empire and especially its dealings with the greeks i see just getting par want listen to that first before you dive into this but listen i'm right here in tiny how to live in life you do anything you want i would like to point out that this is the damn car one version of the story which is always good to be with me which may or may not correspond to the traditional way these things are told so please listen nature wrong risk that could spark study in interest in the subject i'd be very happy about that nonetheless without further adieu with proper warnings in place this is kings of kings or two i'm having a gun and rabbit is his to write a story was the guy with a low ebb we have been coming to you and so how are our for her gone i'm bernard her it heard what i had had let it go back to it that have about how and why at more than that all was on and one that i've been playing hide and the words the queen and the use of huh and you move ahead and get what you'd get court had we while lose and the layton is it that put little it up but to big one i hope if we could be the martyrdom of dog when i know who you're not used that to implement you've all been pat pat it's short for history how many people audible hundred you couldn't the two people that you knew what the pitcher for them or read about how many people out of a hundred do you think could handle absolute power without coldly losing their mind and if he could handle it initially if you could find a well balanced person who could deal with it initially what about dealing with the long haul because in our history shows that there are a lot of people they know the power or gets to you over time you'd said she slowly in the deep avalanche willpower knew she could to him look for ten years or twenty years or thirty years those of us in the democratic systems tend to assume because it's kind of built into the thinking of our political systems that nobody can handle absolute power or that it certainly an unbelievably small number right absolute power corrupts absolutely how long are we all heard that term and we assume it's a truism i know why'd you and yet i can prove myself along pretty easily but looking back at the past in realizing that by that sort of rationale shouldn't every emperor and keenan throughout history that had you're close to war the fact that all absolute power should they all be crazy to me all lose their minds while you can certainly say most of them probably lost perspective of for example what life was like for normal people vast majority of them didn't go crazy which might be more interesting than assuming the opposite although we all know of the high profile examples don't worry the new nor use the classic antoine ago break to god was gone and atler you could say maybe it was a form of parkinson's disease or maybe to a doctor feel good drugs he was being shot up with the same time by the end of his rule he's exhibiting the classic symptoms of megalomania and paranoia the calm with the absolute power so the stereotype look at a guy like alexander the great to me he's almost a mechanic on one's listening especially with his program by his early thirties he says paranoid and as middlemen ayatollah smuggler is an indian maybe some of that connected to what the long history of coke or rampant and mr harmon all may be the party was alcoholism who knows it's difficult to separate the alexander seem to be able to handle power initially in the summer long line he couldn't and the sources of the time by the way right about this growing megalomaniac paranoia not very fair sources may be too low to knowledge that wendy near legendary an enormous historical figure of sonorous thickly to be talked about in the first part of the story when he died this course killed in five thirty five twenty nine b. c. he bequeathed to his son that the most dangerous inheritance i can imagine he leaves in the empire that you just won and by doing so he beaufort to create an immense challenge for his son to overcome absolute power or something very close to him with back into him up but also we harris's sana something that is so valuable it immediately other entities are going to be tempted by it's like leaving him gold and jewels which you know in effect he really did leave him and then sending him out to in the morning to walk down the most crime ridden street in town you're always gonna be looking over your shoulder and there may be other people very tempted by which you have cyrus the great told us i'm listening to him by season officially it can buy shoes the second as part of what the main sire were such a visionary ruler he paid a lot of attention before his death to making sure that there would be smooth transition of power from him to his new designated successor this is an error in human history where this was a very precarious affair onslaught of autonomy we take for granted in our democratic systems today the transfer power will be relatively smooth we consider when you're really big deal a constitutional crisis if it we can name the wiener with the end of the day on election day and it has to go record in the fish challenges to him about what's in the state of that ticket to huge deal in the engine your east to west asia the fury we're talking about here all kinds of nightmares happened any chemo or whether we've known about them it would be revolutions in coombs of assassinations and sons would would kill their parents and gore war with each other in my favorite story about these kinds of affairs and it's it's a classic case i guess you could say the rule proving a classic case is the syrian king some operate who've famously destroyed babylon and then lost his life supposedly while praying at the hands of at least want then maybe to his sons and one tradition by the wake shield with the statue that represented babylon see you get that wonderful you know ancient history time that the authors from ancient times all white where are the others are certain carmen justice you you destroyed babylon and a goner babylon gets back to you and edison's gore war with each other in the tail tells him efforts on maybe comes in defeat both of them and takes over the thrill sounds perverse but not that unusual on a guy like stylistically would've understood the pitfalls right is gonna be a time of entities out there that want the power that you just created remember silas is the guy who would the space of a single reined in me long way in took his people from the geographical back walk around the world stage and made him the masters of the greatest impact world ever seen a guy whose initial title we change the throne was king of the pawn shop on those titles when he died were things like king of the world king of the four corners of the earth king of the universe as we said in the first part of the show that's a heck of a promotion one lifetime and while it's hard enough for that self made individual that makes that proportion the space of a lifetime how much harder i'd be for people who simply have that handed to them the second generation or the third generation begins to live a lifestyle that different in expects the sorts of things you see sire restraining his son for years before his demise to make him you're ready essentially on the job training eastern hand over the family business to us on and so is unfit to be the viceroy babylon for wild get to hang out with your me for a while do this to that he's learning how to be the king of kings one perfect somehow increases your chances that you can do so without losing your mind in your perspective cyrus also brokers important deal because he has more than once on an ego if you look back and even in recent history gallic cyrus would enable the notice how much of a problem you have when you have more than one possible an error due to the throne fibers in addition to his oldest son can bite is another one known by multiple names the most common probably be mispronounced by yours truly is borneo he's the younger son and according to the engine sources take this for what it's worth one silas is crafting essentially his will was inheritance to deal inmates can buy she's the next king of kings but he gets over the consolation prize to the younger brother writing you lose out on the on the front of empire but here is your runner rob gifford he kissed him a large territory in central asia to govern and apparently saying is that unlike all the territories are being governed in the name of the king you can keep the taxes in the tribute from your places still are machold and your older brother but in a nice little in a place to call your own sort of panda and keep the morning in the shui this seems to work rather well customs cyrus die is the transition to his chosen successor seems to be relatively seamless and then ames begin to get corrupted so corrupted in fact to actually have to look the end of cam by seasons rain men work backward to the beginning because what happens at the end changes crops and alters all that we know about the rain i am by she's the second rings can be like that game of clue juror play the game were to to figure out the murder mystery in the weapon what were what happened and it was colonel mustard in the library with the candlestick trying to figure out the reign of cam by seasoned with this guy was the little like trying to figure rob the whodunit of the game of clue because something happened to cam by seas they might be if he goes insane because he can handle the amount absolute power he has that's what the ancients sources indicate right peratis basically says that to my she's lost his mind a lot of modern historians don't buy them all they see a cover up a conspiracy something that would not be i'm familiar to people who read know things about the john f. kennedy assassination conspiracy tales about that because if something about the demise of cam by sees that looks a lot like one of those john f. kennedy assassination conspiracy books were several of them what's more the people that may have gotten the king of kings the founder of the persian empire so now the way mayor been the ones who got to then decide how they history about him was written and that is collared everything we know about second ruler the team in the persian empire a guy who had a very unenviable task of trying to follow all legend we who could follow alexander the great well nobody really ripped his empire part and started fighting over rather quickly who could fall on all fiddlers his dreams of a thousand you're right even partially came true you can even imagine can you hitler's personality in dna was in entwined all for robbie idea that the right she can even imagine anyone succeeding in any subtle realistic way right as opposed to no admiral doughnut to succeed him for a couple days to sign the peace agreement who could succeed napoleon can buy shoes the second he is in an enviable position with modern historians are to be bullied and i shouldn't see why they should be he did a pretty good job for the time yet available to him was he insane that's much harder one to figure out depends on who you believe that if he was sure wouldn't be hard to imagine why how many people would you know one of the hundred could handle absolute power the idea that cam by c.'s was insane and indeed get all these crazy things was worn the toe cold way back in ancient times persisted up until really like the nineteen sixties or nineteen seventies well the rent in nineteen thirty five the greek historian riding in how to get history did a wonderful job and by the way taking it at face value giving you the traditional cam by c. story and it's a litany of horrors but it's fascinating is happening if your prerogative as we described the ancient greek historian as an ancient screenwriter or script runner if you're her riotous don't you wanna nice half mad persian king to play around with because i think about the possibilities in herington that right here's the way will do it describes his nineteen thirty five begin taking the entire story face value but essentially giving you the story as it was understood him believe two happened for thousands of years he writes starting to talk about silas embassies is bothering contrasting in comparing them he says quote one great defect and so we does character meaning cyrus is character occasional an incalculable cruelty it is inherited one mixed with cyrus is generosity by his half mad so on them by c.'s began by putting to death his brother and rival he means barney adhesives mayor just told you to get a lot of names by putting to death his brother reliable smeared is then the lord by the accumulated wealth of egypt he said forced to extend the persian empire to the nile he succeeded but apparently the cost of insanity memphis was captured easily bought an army of fifty thousand persians sent to win next to you when he says a bomb on perished in the desert any expedition to carthage failed because the venetian cruise of the persian fleet refused to attack the phoenician colony cam i's he's lost his head and abandon the wise clemency intolerance of his father publicly scoffed at the egyptian religion and plunged his dagger derisively into the bowl revered by the egyptians is the god i hate this week soon to mommies and pride in the royal tombs regardless of ancient curses paper feigned the temples in order idols to be burnt he thought in his way to cure the egyptians of superstition but when he was stricken with an illness apparently epileptic compulsions the egyptians were certain that their god to punish him and at that theology was now confirmed beyond dispute as it began to illustrate the inconveniences of monarchy to read right cam by seas with the napoleonic cake in the stomach killed his sister running wife rocks on up to his son possess bees with an arrow there reach well noble persians alive today increases to death repented rejoiced to learn the dissented not been carried out in punish the officers who delayed in executing it on his way back to persia he learned that the usurp or had seized the throne and is being supported by widespread revolution from that moment he disappears for history tradition has it did he kill themself in equal if you or the ancient screenwriter that is riotous you love this guy is a story element but is it true trying to investigate what happened here is like going into a crime scene and being investigator i've often thought the histories like a crime scene and no i am not a historian i'm in my ear were from afar but i love those moments were historians are put into the sort of the joe friday the sergeant joe friday with the position colombo moten going to the game of clue and start investigating what happened then the guys from the ron's error and earlier the shone like old timer investigators ago what did the interview witnesses nitro to grow happening to be the stories we understand it but they all have modern day techniques right fight investigating the kennedy assassination you know with techniques from the early nineteen sixties or being able to have it happen today in investigated with d. n. a. evidence in modern day ballistics and in amadeo samples and cameras on every street corner and the differences an astonishing in one modern day historians go back and examine this case the break it down to the singer something she would if you were sergeant joe friday going into the scene you'd start looking at the physical evidence for the blood spatter on the fingerprints that spring archaeological stuff to me start comparing that to the stories you got from the witnesses and different people around the neighborhood there in the year with the sources of the stuff that come down to us the star compiling sort of a in a composite of what the person the victim was like and maybe send investigators down to city hall you start looking at the paper trail seekers in the inner weapons on this person arrest records real estate transactions anything like that those are the elite should sources like the babylonian tablet that they've found you try to compile some sort of a semblance of what happened based on you know the total view of the evidence the story became by jesus insane comes from some of the no weaknesses of the crime scene anemia been giving you the information secondhand anemia come from baidoa sources but if you're investigating this crime scene you'll start with just the facts as sergeant joe friday might've said the facts of kim by issues the second line that you can say with certainty is that he your rules for about eight years to about five thirty beseech about five twenty two b. c. he was picking up that first really gave the persian empire being able capability this may not celica big deal but really it made him the first of the powers that were based in mesopotamia and memory of the world to have any sort of significant naval capability ever the public the syrians might've had the tribute in the phenomenal legions of some of these coastal cities on the mediterranean maybe even been able to operate and coastal forces are forces in freshwater areas but the persians become the first of these people to have a fleet which is significant on the mediterranean naval world stage and it should be they take over the one that was probably the best in the mediterranean up until that time stark absorbing phoenician cities with the fabulous phoenician navies in the way the persians governed they have created roni the winning ticket the nations and make them as a base to start their own they simply waiting in there as the subcontracted assiduous in which you had offered him parma witter really speaking is your incomplete so when we need a fleet your fleet is our fleet in your run and you know what you're doing in toby bonus in for you if you will be serious with us as ability to perform well or else the persians probably said something like a perform well and to build something extra to hinder the year so can buy she says the guy that does that and that makes a huge difference in the story it's about to happen because of the persian don't have any naval power will lot of things in your current russian history can't for example the other thing can buy she's absolutely known for that to physical fact and that's what he's the king of kings that takes over egypt something that requires by the way this navy in order to do and a complete the conquest of his father remembers father in a way for stormed off concrete things they were for connor superpowers in the world a bad time with your version of the world silas conquer three of them is some conquered the remaining out in egypt was a great stayed pretty much always they were no pushover although i'm not alot is known about him the fighting in the battle small that switched off there were some decent stories one of the more perverse but one of the two sources road you know probably totally false but said that the persians took an image of the ancient egyptians reverence for cats and strapped catch to their shields so the egyptian archers would be one is sure of our react to that that would be exactly the kind of an image that that ron it's type character would love to share with audience at the colorful panicked amusement but rotted tissue cells says he actually saw ball fields in egypt from some of these battles and that would've been in a seventy five years after the factor something so would be very interesting is not like robert is to lie about what actually caesar woody actually talked to somebody about seeing to reduce tells a story from the fighting that says that the persians one point in the should be very like them by the way 'cause been we've talked about in the wash for limitations we did this with the greeks and other people's they send envoys to the egyptian defenders at one point probably try and offer them a typical persian deal you know on you give up his fight will benefit bauble water be great he now on the must've been a sizable delegation because her rota says that the egyptians sees the delegation and the or the limb from limb and pretty much at any time in history just about anywhere you go and boys and an ambassador somewhat not or untouchable mean they're they're usually very strong the reasons to nod the use the invoice of another country in the persian tournaments evelyn as you said the last up to the persian sir very lenient empire sort of graded on a curve they could be just as nasty as their predecessors in the region one they decided they want to send a message the persian form very good knowing who descended to the rioters tells a story who knows if it's true or not about what the egyptian punishment was when they lost the war and someone had to pay for the treatment of those envoys were so horribly abused peratis hands kim bikes he's right after he captures egypt summoning the egyptian elite to the capital in memphis to watching demonstration of what happens to people who break the law and i keep trying to imagine what seemed like this is like a must've been no intense enough with an oral historian like prerogatives talking about it to an audience i can imagine what the big screen modern day what buster movie would be like but here's what eroticism you try to imagine to what the sound of two thousand parents watching the children being executed is like produces cold nine days after can buy she said taking control over memphis be ceded to mean a toast king of egypt would rain six months' another egyptians in front of the entrance to the town is an insult they tested the spirit of seventy chosen this way he had the daughter of the former king dressed like this light and send out carrying a job to get water along with other girls selected daughters of the most in name in an all dressed in the same way is the daughter of seven ito's as the girls walked past their fathers they cried out and wept at all the other fathers senior children so degraded answered their cries and wept with their own but sam any just at this gene in recognizing his daughter only been there on in silence to the ground prerogatives continues what after the girls and going by with their water can buy c. sent out the son of sam many tell us which a thousand other egyptians the same age out with ropes around their necks and it's in their mouths they were being led in this manner nor did pay the penalty the egyptians destruction of the middle unions in their ship at memphis and for the decision of the royal judges was bad for each member of the ship's crew and imminent egyptian should be put to death in return salmon ito saw them passing by and realize that his son was being led to his death bob all the other egyptian seated around him were crying and openly expressing your anguish he became dizzy and the case of his daughter and co i try mansion that scene the parents watching the children put to death into slavery think it might not get home until you think about it of these girls were probably drastic stream the scantily these are formerly of the noble women you know what the realm of anna dressed in a way that would be provocative to let's just say the male population looking for slaves for more than just menial labor we tend to forget that element of slavery over time but it's on down rubble that sex was an integral part of the attraction of having someone that you owned available at any time if you're the parent watching a dollar in that situation the anguish and ended watcher some being executed for review and encino the other people in your situation forward next you in this crowd scenes i mean what's that sound like but is this allegation true there you begin to ask questions that are part of investigating the crime scene titus it was true it's not hard to imagine that can buy he sees my give me a few enemies and egyptian society might not have the greatest reputation in egypt which is where you can start the investigative process peratis is reopened henri was giving his information about these events which happened about seventy five years before in his writing he says he got information from persians and egyptians when the egyptians mine on him into happy with him by ceased to begin with by the time iraq's is talking to them they're having problems with persian they're not very happy may have some revolt and deserve unreasonably that robert this is egyptian sources that he used to kill the anti persian but typically inside him by cease in the persian sources were to which isn't much harder question to answer why is the son of silence not more highly thought of almost his own people this lot of allegations against him by twos more used to legal terms right alleged as noble warriors piling up the historical charges against him he's alleged to have no kill the children of those prominent egyptian she's alleged two of lost an entire forty or fifty thousand man army in the desert on the way the congress oasis and supposedly the same storm blows up there is a whole army and they're still there most historians and articles are bred do not believe they're still there but it's an intriguing in offering to you capture the hearts of archaeologist about every ten years so we're susannah out for expeditions you start talking about the in all likelihood of finding the lost or me ask him by c. news then supposedly in his rage in haste he supposed to have attacked the people to the south of egypt though why old coach egyptians call beaumont upon a time the black african egyptians you know if you will when people think of the dark subsaharan africa and they rose they're thinking of the push item the question it's dominated egypt for in the time curie for example around history in time through we literally have blackberry rose and the culture of the salient down south of egypt was egyptian also in the ancient sources say they can buy shoes didn't prepare for the sinners general told him you had to have supplies needing care in the army start starving in the field and they draw lots the ancient sources say and when you pick a lot in the guy who gets the short end of the straw one out of ten of the persian soldiers hasta sacrificed themselves for the army and into the pot to go then the same sources say the game by she's the bringing his cannibal listed decimated army backed up to egypt conspiracies the egyptian celebrating and so can buy she's assumes that the celebration is the celebration his misfortune any start increasing in killing priests and interrogating them and then he does the thing that is the most sacrilegious to me tradition any picks up a dagger real stabs the dust bowl if that's true there's very little that would upset the egyptians more than that the eighties bulldozers sacred egyptian symbol they are banner read treated with the huge amount of karen respect so for kim by ceased to deliberately injure or correct would have been a huge religious transgression and shocking to the people of egypt and once upon a time the early investigators of this historical crime scene accepted that can buy she's killed the pistol on the lot of other things called from that not hard to see he's got bad press and is portrayed as insane rhonda to straight up says he is and the killing of the baseball afford the best pieces of evidence to prove it but the modern day investigators the colombo's to joe friday is have more tools of their disposal and more information at hand in the early investigators today madame had to rely on the witness' testimony back in the day of welder went in nineteen thirty five but by about the nineteen sixties nineteen seventies records were becoming available on modern historians to cut the equivalent of fingerprints no blood spatter evidence and they found out rue egyptian records that made this bull didn't die consumers killed not only did die in normal death that was interred with the other rapist balls from previous times but the persian king of kings can buy he sees as a hero conducted all the normal sort of religious rights and sacrament you would've expected in media born fierro to do he behaved exactly she would've expected him to move he was keeping the continuous policy the sword is bothering to employ a tolerant and having the persian king assumed illegitimate mantle of the religious beliefs and that the government of all these countries and fit in perfectly this is poured would begin to make modern day history is suspicious of the official story so was propagating the official story this is all based on in a greek writers like a rocket test who are all sorts of undercurrent of other things he was writing about including the idea of the growth of parisian decadence and how you're from the greatness of cyrus they were already beginning to fall once i mean you would choose drinking himself to death spending too much time in the harem in losing his mind and it's all downhill from there to themes of oriental weakness and deck against an intelligence they have continued up until the present any so you take everything he says with a grain of salt but there is an influential persian that sort of takes a swipe it can buy seas it adds fuel to the conspiracy fire when he says can buy she's killed his brother and kept it secret walter combines he's had a brother or ordeal by name of the same mother in the same father's came by c.'s afterwards came by as he's killed barney yet we can buy she said killed barney at it did not become know that the people the party had been killed unequal those ancient allegations are more than twenty five hundred years old they were current into the walk face of the sacred mountainside long which the old heavily traveled waterworld joost ron i've always thought of it is can a woman most successful examples of world side billboard and ever although i don't think is very easy to see for the road they put a gardener rounded and stopping be more like the rest stop in a container carving showing seen involving human figures in three different languages and their ration the narration is the story of how one of the greatest change in the team in the persian empire probably number two on most people's top ten list behind cyberspace great hard to the founder of the empire off the top job usually because of the guy named two wires or daily use the great i use both pronunciations interchangeably infer that i apologize i'm hopeful sometimes unless this is the story of how he gets the job of king of kings as told by darius degrade yourself it's an autobiography of sorts but the reason that the little self serving this is a guy who by the way which seemed to have every quality you want perspective great genius change except for one thing legitimacy and the story the details on the mountainside amongst other places seems to be a quest to explain to you the reader no why he should have and deserves the top job including the normal sort of qualifications of the god wants and have it off for rum mazda of being the god this is a tub of the change in emphasis in religion for the persian empire much too complicated for me to understand that fascinating says or maza and he's behind him and gives 'em all these great gives to make sneaking in them want to have the job goes into his lineage in all the blue blooded to ms raines these your standard justifications anyone would expect but then his story of yours into the we're dead we're done wonderful conspiratorial on fantastic know what's funny about this is this is the official story in the official story is twisted darius degrees an interesting person into this information from the custer riester great in our historical crime scene is like colonel mustard in the game of clue he's a potential suspect because somehow this guy who was not directly connected to the royal line will end up in the top job how does that happen well it's an interesting story and rice the great cars of alongside the mountain's twenty two and it starts off with him by she's killing his brother in keeping it secret and the reason this is important is because apparently came by she's had no ears so what happens if they saw no sire which the king of kings were darn it was the only other person logically be to get that job too or the other sort of silas wright body huh the zanu got the consolation prize of empire you for the lines irises songs were the air can buy a cease and despair and yet something happened to kim icy to turn to despair don't shoot so how's darius have the job why in despair get the job well funny you should ask him by she's killed the state and he didn't tell anybody about it in any lead the army the conqueror egypt and darius to great serving as his lance bearer or spirit there are which is a an official position think about it perched on the general staff person in the news on twenty eight years old part of an increasingly nasty veteran persian army the congress egypt according to the riders while they're away or water on their way home or the other they get the word that's the throne is besieged by usurp are they usurp are claiming to be barred ia but according to darius bar he was dead the problem of course is by not telling anyone as he says can buy he sees didn't people didn't know the party wasn't alive anymore the writer says that the name of the impostor on the throne was go marked origami to any identifies him as a man just one of the marriage i more modern were magician is related to that and i didn't realize this until tom how lonely historian pointed out misspoke hirsch info ire but to me the connection to the fact that this is really sort of horde of lead story but now it has someone who colon be considered to have the potential supernatural powers involved which explains away all kinds of story holes doesn't it when you have brought musicals and as a manager is it over with those people can do all he had explained but after this guy amato seizes the throne the impart charge to come over to him darius in it's own is rock carvings and the people began to go over to this false board yeah are you seem to be popular ma the way to ike imperative the law and it's well known among football fans that the backup quarterback is the most popular player on the team because you you can invest all your hopes and that you don't know how bad person plight but you know ye not so happy with the starting quarterback him by seizes the starting quarterback and there are a lot of historians thinking that they were policies they can buy he sees was a part of for example in cutting down the mana money to the egyptian priesthood is no eliminating reducing the power of clan leaders and local noble so that the consolidated in the central government all these sorts of things tax policy he may not have been too popular with a lot of people were at his party a guy will it he's the backup quarterback i think he played better if you just gave him the job so darius as he was getting a lot of support was becoming a big problem and he's with can buy she said that time peratis tells us wonderful story again another movie scene at we're he has the representative from the new king show one up you know in front of the army and cam by seizing all there on the field and for claiming it from the army that is a new king on the throne and that they should no longer yoshi the orders of the very keen who's with them no visible those are great stories and then somehow in the story in five twenty two b. c. and i see these guys and budget historians will say you know suspiciously of suspicious that we don't know what happened to embrace use according to darius on his rock harmon he says he died in his own death for while that was also translated as by his own hand which made us all think of suicidal wall back but more modern historians to point out that that probably not the right translation that even if you use the way the greek writer say he died you couldn't trooper that is by his own hand and not have it be a suicide question for example veronica says can buy she's will die after he jumps on his horse and stabs himself with his sword because the tip of the scamper to come all and the p. leg wound will get infected and he will die several days later by the way because robert does has to tie the story of the wonderful both he says he stabbed himself right at the spot on his thigh we stand he is small in egypt see once again hi mok eroticism be karma dialogue the ancient writers are they just don't call it that that you get your just desserts right in another greek authors tail which is no strangely similar in some way he says can buy c.'s was wiggling a piece of wood with his sword any slipping me come so often find same thing infected guys in two days later so he die by his own emma does not suicidal unless no one or sally died and as a decent number maybe i'd say twenty percent of the story jury nothing but the guy probably was a victim of assassination by his underlings one of whom was right as the great and suspiciously the one who becomes the next in a big chain if you're the historical crushing mr rice the great guy is the one is going to get all the stuff of the murder victim he's colonel mustard he's a potential suspect here so this whole story has to be taken with a grain of salt because of what happens next according to darius after kim by she dies he organizes would maybe you could call i had tea and assassination squad all ugh arctic a team and he will set out to kill this person who was impersonating the dead brother of kim by c. is right 'cause if you believe darius is official story when he and his six assassination cohort go on to do this deed both of the sons of cyrus are dead but the story as told by darius on the mountainside in b. is still an orb is a tone that the inscriptions called in it's own way the dramatic enough almost pre bare bones want to ride it is the screenwriter slash is storing gets his hands on it it becomes is wonderful tales fully modern probably the precursor to several repetitive movie things we've all seen hundred times but if that's the case robert as the guy who started this in his hands this assassination movies like a forced confirmed never wrong type movie now we have the assassins of the commandos but the working for the good guys an old pagodas heavily armed and nazi ireland to take out the head of the gestapo were some control these guards with lots of explosions of all these things that's a little like with the story sounds like rota says that darius in his compatriots go for crews were the false king the majesty is staying up and then to get past the guards because of their lofty status in the regime and these are the pillars of the regime the aristocracy this is the oligarchy walking in surely there nothing to stop at the gate and fear but to little rock to sport for years the story so before stem from every group to pass the first level defense and reduce has been encounter ring royal unix in the courtyard these will messengers he says the persians like the law the regimes in manila had a lot unix and a lot of debate over whether or not they were sort of really castrated males taken is that young boy is to provide a governmental class for the persians were weather castration and axes to become symbolic by that point it was more of a puppet to the title it's hard to know probably the former the white tender believe the weirdness we're mighty hand and these unix recognized that these seven aristocratic nobles are there for no good in challenge them and in the night fighting shoes making a lot of noise in the courtyard and again when you're reading eroticism old like this try to remember the life story is the key was performing this alive for an audience and that's the case this is our home rockets in action is c. so all that's missing really are the explosions in the loop is sound of the big score the popcorn and you could hear the courtyard sound effects of illinois and roberts is basically says that the man jain he's got two of them because why only have one super villain and a story we can double up to us to just having the joker in this movie he's got to know the riddler too two of them and jai and a look down on the corner they can hear the commotion so they are themselves and then after the force ten for marilyn commandos get rid of the unix in the running towards the stairs and he just imagine the music reading existing we've all seen ride the run up there and as a swatch buckle and fight with the two man johnny and the force tender never wrong commando guy is one guy gets ten people were wrestling and then again in the scene the scene a million times the one principal matt just one who is both balls bargain the water's been sitting on the throne dressed as the king takes off and breaks about the room to be followed by a guy in gerber heinz and assumed to be down the road king of kings to rise to take off the half to the one guy down the hallway through the door into the darkened room and you mentioned music and attention go for your popcorn here right and then the brightest and a false killer wrestling in the dark room and darius is sitting there with his sword but he's afraid to stand because he's afraid of getting a splendid and the brightest at him around it says is why are you hesitate egos and only hit juanita stab us both are you crazy to ron's and through only gets to that died darius and his rock carvings little bit more bare bones that rob the tissues about what happened you're pointing out get thee if the king had led the reign of terror in persia because she was wiping out anyone they could recognize that he was a fake or know anyone who knew what the real bar you look like he was getting rid of so he can consolidate his position an upbeat called a fraud to after explaining that the reign of terror was going on darius is on his mom's side court no one dared say anything about belmont of the madison to high came afterwards i prayed to okura mazda cora mazda brought me in the month the body yet each ten days had passed in the night with a few minutes we'll go much of the matches and the men who were his foremost followers of fortress the yamato should by name and the district nestea by name amadou yep there i slew him i took the kingship from him by the favor of awful roma as the high became king hora mazda bestowed the kingship upon me and co the server his stories of said it in this entire recount does look a little bit like to ride is the author protest too much doesn't it the story of how he goes from simply be one of the assassins to the one that actually gets the top job involves a horse and it's not very good to talk about breakfast in the chiquita we're story and makes no sense at all news no way anybody ever got paid to be king that why so all becomes a little bit we're now darius ends up of the throne no wonder he feels a need to explain it here's the problem he faces if you don't bully he can buy shoes killed his brother look at how this entire story changes into the crime scene investigator you approach it from that way was historian peter bergeron says the entire structure collapses white house of cards because you can buy shoes didn't kill his brother borneo what happened to bar dia hang this is where we get back to the game of clue we're examining possibilities scenarios motives things like that and for example scenario number wall and is that may be barred ia letter rebellion everything that cyrus the great was so worried about what he divided his empire and worries so much about giving bar you the consolation prize day empire now boarding a terrible thing that happens so often in the ancient world war maybe happened anyway there are hints of the brothers minimum got along so well are you seem to be your pocket her head in a backup quarterback thing going for him maybe she led a rebellion in which case it can buy she's did kill him that would indeed been some slam on his historical reputation of would've been a pretty standard thing for which you do and probably justifiable i think by leaving out the specifics of that can buy he seizes motive to ride is so slender sue for all eternity by letting your imagination or her reduces imagination philomena blanks when he came by c.'s killers brother 'cause he's insane indonesian unless the idea that bar you may have led a rebellion with locally to people trying to preserve their power we're pushing up a different approach for the umpire oral that's very possible in which case bar you may have died as a usurp are to kill by kim pisces another possibility asked to do with no question of timing when this barney a character took the throne right he took the throne wynter writes as he took the throne we can buy says he's still alive and well one that to usurpation right he's a rebel basically what if he takes it after kim by she's had died and who knows how that happened but let's just say whittling would we got ourselves we died ten days later from dangling who is the empire go to book him by she's really had no here's the way the ancient author said the umpire should go to bar you shouldn't and things get really strange when you start asking the question about it if this was the real bargain because if barney wasn't killed by can buy seems who he is it that darius and his hit team take out when they go no one kill the maginnis the befalls party and yamato well if it's not the full story of it's the real born yet one of the various scenarios are directing that are historical crime scene investigator now showing back up at headquarters in telling their superior officer in the old gray haired cynical veteran lieutenant the official story that they got from the crime scene that this darius character tell them yes i established address just picking them named pat on the to blame party of the son of cyrus body was a cardiac arrest in the nation by killing this impostor and lieutenant the grizzled veteran looking at them like you're undermining going you're really believe that crap today you would probably happened this darius gag killed can buy ceases came up and then went and killed his brother the guy who should've been the next came an end to the throne from self case closed that might happen to you historian says can't know that non of information which tell you so much about what was going on to know the facts it's what the ultimate cold case file of all time isn't it like the way historian mark when the maroon car the sums up the situation gave you that the sense that they get suspicious but we don't know what happened and all of possibilities he writes cool our main source of information about events is the description by the final victor darius who was not a legitimate successor to the throne his account was carved in three languages are rock the saw the day is done is on rose mountain valley connecting babylonian in iran it was also spread throughout the empire in here remain a translation humble pie re impossibly toward tissues lot of these as the basis for the story he told him his histories we have thus be severely by his description that might usurp our own justifies his actions in the text and it is not easy to determine what really happened and co because it's so important all these historians who don't like to stray very far from the data because there's so little dad are forced to what he gave you his best guess he your call come buy a seat is prolonged stay in egypt gave his brother bart yet a chance to claim kingship at home the latter abolished taxes in military levies for three years ago and again popular support can buy c.'s return for egypt was probably assassinated either by barred yep or by darius high military commander who subsequently killed marty yeah and equal there are other theories as well at recess origami in his book discovering cyrus says we shouldn't be so quick to throw out the official story he's not specifically lining up with it but he says listen if you look at a certain number facts be history's been weirder than this maybe there was a gal monitor but maybe he was impersonating the other summer cyrus and maybe can my sister killed him of course the final possibilities it's partly true they can buy c. t. going same in the tutelage brother and he didn't tell anybody about that but that eventually in the oligarchy is confronted with the king of kings who's not in his right mind you can't exactly impeach one of those so what's the logical alternative to the system individual way with an absolute ruler of the absolute ruler has lost his mind maybe in this case the riots and all the rest of the aristocracy was simply doing the logical common sense thing in that situation unknowns to those historians who suggest that we may have here when darius comes to power some short and oligarchy coup he writes to be in the inscription on the side of the mountain quote the riester king says these are the men who were at bedtime were there when i slew yamato the mattress who called himself marty i at that time these men cooperated as my followers he goes on to name specifically in the six culkin spear litters the other members of the assassination eighteen one by one and any says quote you will shall be king hereafter protect well the offspring of these men in the court how many descendants over on during the years let's just say although the persian empire existing closure to two hundred how only need people can be offspring of those six regional conspiratorial force ten for now barone comrades the descendants of the assassins may have ended up being like an oligarchy in the persian empire or maybe a better way to phrase it is like an oligarchy on top of the already existing hola garlicky the crown democrat m. descendants of the eighteen members in greek literature they we usually be referred to as the seven and being one of the seven may have been the equivalent of having your place in persia society leader rudely carved into stone but what the greatest kings the persian empire ever produced have we seen the seven athena darius in his six co conspirators little like the initial investors in them assassination related start up company this case is start a company devoted to assassinating the ruler in taking the throne over and that's the case he really did put those people who are permanent different class will that's a heck of a long term dividend return that paid off until they basically the end of the empire not a bad deal historian pure briana as one of some of the newer want to question the entire idea behind the special class by the way some of the new restoring suggest that these six persians there were the co conspirators that that number might've been chosen for religious reasons there may be one six or more than six or less than six also been into so happens that these people may simply were present a powerful in our noble claims of persia anyway to the people that are rework and the oligarchy in persia to skittish that has reaffirmed doesn't matter which one of these scenarios though that explains the abyss we're period between the end of cam by ceases reined in the beginning of a ring of the guy who doesn't seem to have any connection to the royal family darius doesn't matter which was most inertia true and by the way we only scratched the surface on the mini better help there they're all pretty darn while the wall we all come would make a good film personally i think the best wanted is he now this advanced version of like the warring commission report the official narrative of darius makes the best movie to ask me deterrent to study the screenplay oliver stone to directed the tradition lucas and i'm liane it's tough like does that make us maybe the best coup d'etat slash assassinations slash regime shane shaken spirit she story out there and it's fantastic doesn't matter which one turns out to be true though by five twenty one b. c. e. the end result is this guy darius is on the throne annie's got maybe you could say of legitimacy deficit maybe the only thing he's watching and it causes him problems wide awake he's very open about this in this oro biographical account will carved into the mountainside the list all the places that rebel against his rule you testified he says nineteen battles in the you're in a half to three years to quell all of the uprisings in these places in persia that are rebelling are some of its most important provinces large places right egypt for example and they're not rebelling so that they can band together and support some sort of washable claimant to the throne because his stories into my bimbo to people on the impart a puppet and much of a connection to the throne is mr ryder sky it looks instead like they're all coming going road to the same time but they want their independence back they all seem to have kings but sprang from nowhere better claiming we will descend from the last independent line all these places have had a bride and in the same way that darius on the mountainside inscriptions says the dow motto lied about being party remember the persians have this thing about lying they should be number one on their cultural modern listed this point as we see as they lied that's pretty bad but then he goes on to say that all of these kings in all these promises that ever bell better claiming descent from the old royal family be used to exist there before the persian showed up there all lie historians referred all these kings as the lawyer kings to rise would have to go from place to place to place biting battle after battle after battle he would send his generals to go find some of these gals too had to conquer babylon more than once you'll love this one of the wire kings the pops up also claims to be barred ear so this would be the second guardia that shows up on the scene is that the zombie now under some of cyrus they cannot be killed my love the way by the way darius on the mountainside inscription gives the orders to his forces to go quell these rebellions he says the same thing every time which probably means it's ritual martin somewhat but but still wonderful in old-school ancient stop terminology he says quote go forth and defeat the rebellious army which will not call itself mine and equal and then as he captures the use the rebel leaders to want to tie themselves to be older the royal family from long ago he treats the mall preterm abby sometimes they only show up in pieces the ila might when they find out he's basically on the way they kill their own independent in themselves and son's body parts to darius but softly sang all we're sorry we get is hands on the whole why you're king one of the time he treats them like this this involves won the rebelled in the dna and for your cheese which is a greek version of a name that famous in median histories of rooted in the old royal family and then to rise got his hands on him he writes on the visits of inscription on the mountainside court darius became says afterwards for your knees fled with a few horsemen there is a district in india ron got my name and there he went after that i sent an army in pursuit for your cheese was seated lead to me i caught off his nose of yours in town and i put out wanna besides at my gate he was kept abound at all the people look at him after that i impaled him to get back to him in the four percent expected up by hank of the men who worries for most followers they executed is nobles a total of forty seven on their heads inside it that note from the battlements of the fortress and quo no he said the persians were more tolerant than a lot of the earlier empires in the region but that's great atomic are this is still the ancient fury with the sorts of treatment of prisoners and captives and people on the other side of justice for example more resembles the stuff that the very worst of the terrorists in our world today do you that's often part of the legal codes of these early societies north fascinated by the extremes of the human experience when you go for back in time you see them everywhere i mean i was reading for example the process by which in pale mint is an execution is carried out in some places is sometimes i think in our heads we just think as sharp and state sticking out of the ground in the world the victim up when a mistake in gilman done almost no fly as well basically but instead of reading about your whole thing with a the user razor blade in advance and some of these places they would then put something on to stop the bleeding in the chapel little bit sore went away they wanted i'm increasing v. p. state can mean things that just be doesn't make any sense to the modern mining think about the people who did this anything that they all sound like a different species don't they but there are two it could take a little newborn baby out of amar hospital put him in a time machine send him back to ancient persia him i'm off to a childless couple larry back in twenty years to check on how the modern kids doing being raised in the ancient world they're probably be able to explain to you the logical common sense moral rationale behind in pale and people they might even explain you that they enjoy watching it times change of course but we human beings are nature's to species are we nonetheless is horrifying as all that sounds when you agree the persians on occurred they still kimonos are rather lenient people by the standards of the place and time the way that darius handles the mini revolt an awful writings and the need to placate whole areas and putting new schrock shearson to keep fires for breaking out again is a foreshadowing of what to calm i comes to the ability of disfigured darius will eventually be called the great his gear smoke or little bit unusual for in the kings of change these heads of state especially if the persian tradition whether we stop to be like warriors like cyrus to greenpeace the leaders on horseback continually pushing the empire to have their troops darius is a little bit more like a in the white collar worker like a desk job guy reduces the persians as saying and he said that cyrus was the father kim by she's dead tyrant and darius the shopkeeper which if you believe what people like robert isn't written about the persians a lot aristocratic peoples of felt this way over time they sort of disdained as either the lower class by their standards things like mercantilism getting your hands dirty with money business commerce anything like that of course in the modern united states much of the world will that maybe the most highly thought of perfection and in the way shopkeeper which sounds a little like that slam at darius you think about the size of the shop darius was running he was running walmart we'll call those people shopkeepers we calm ceo news when you look it to rise to actually looks like a camorra ceo which does make you wonder indian about how we get the job because he seems so suited to wood can help the pinky some soda process of natural selection it was part of his past and we were only choosing from the aristocracy but that's a heck of a major talent pool in trying to choose from two songs of silas isn't always the problem monarchy read such a small talent pool to pick from in some countries yet to be the oldest summon them there's no chance of all let's just rolled the dice the rise may have been the most capable amongst you know the nobility of persia because he seems exactly what the umpire need to this time he is overly concerned with mani us or the stereotype he thinks about profit and loss and he's an administrator and a person who organizes today would think of him as a consultant who comes in and stream lines operations i mean he's credited for example was starting the sand traps and sad trapeze which probably isn't true he probably been started we should be reorganized the empires were blasting away he would handle things sometimes a very cutthroat manner sometimes in a very innovative manner and another way to hurt him very deft manner weighing his options in clever is what they would say about him some of the histories on when when they want to be nice but that could swing over into conniving you know what when the pendulum moved too far in a different direction you think about a guy like steve jobs maybe some of those ceo was not the ones you just go collect a paycheck are the ones who depend hundred twenty three million in the most box cutter houses i've been here you think about the people who really you have something to them we got to hypothermia like this guy or a meal of the sky he conceded this ingenious there and sometimes the geniuses and things that may be seen economize mundane you know i mean it's one thing to see artistic or performance genius it's another thing to see the ministry of water the one they're working their water sometimes benefits are incredible when you look at darius and how he took the persian empire essentially you could call it the start up company at the beginning says when it goes public and arises when he gets his first really high level ceo who takes it to the next level to lot has to be done to make that happen a lot of people in the umpire moines of like very much which is another reason you have in nineteen battles you have to fight sometimes to quell all the fires of her springing up but the difference between the empire when this guy takes over and how he leaves it is profound his reasoning guy comes in nowhere in terms of his royal lineage hands on probably number two on the greatest picking the persian kings of all time he's a highly energetic highly competent long ruling figure who becomes important in the story as far as westerners have been concerned for more than two thousand years because he is the one that starts mixing it up with the greeks and supposedly winners grown-up western civilization considered the greeks the home team the stories kind of a chance to highlight things from the visiting teams point of view in the bow for western civilization of course as we pointed out earlier that pretty hard to do when you're working mostly with the equivalent of the home teams newspapers and the way we structure the stories to just you every kenya king and empire one after another in order us or the structure of the show but so far we've been dealing with kings are so important in the sources especially the hometown newspaper son western civilization are so we'll fall of things involving than we've been able to go into them and loving detail there will be all kings that we will almost fast-forward through and it isn't because they didn't do anything is because if they didn't do anything to war with the greeks we don't know a lot about 'em we do have is most with archaeological evidence to show you and things like that today will be kings of mine and i'm about to things very interesting over often india are in mourning afghanistan are down and you know theory around southern egypt today when all is it the greek sources didn't write about it sometimes we don't know about it in which case summaries king's you can get short shrift indeed cyrus can buy c.'s darius these are some of the heavyweights in the eighteen and empire like a lot of empires their leadership is storefront load which is why does so well for a while keeping tight competent or inspired leadership to end of the good fortunes of an empire will at this point the persian empire is on the upswing in leadership is a large part of it and darius is perhaps in terms of the total competency overall maybe the best thing ever happened he concerns himself with the boring the side of government things like new which is the monetary policy is very famous for example for instituting may be the first medal coinage in the region outside of lydia which is famous for having started metal coinage certainly in that region the gold coins would be called derek's after him shackles will be the silver calling and the persian gold in it and in the wealth of the empire will become absolutely the hallmark element of it they're known for having a lot of money and the use it and of course there's nothing you writing using bribes in money is a foreign policy tool of all that sort of nothing new about that that goes back time immemorial and you during the jury were talking about here may be only the chinese the whole are doing it on a comparable level to what the eighteen the persian empire is doing and some of his plays into the ceo style of darius two things are actually wait i'm a profit and loss sort of criteria and if you know we can solve this military problem without having the final war left with that won the election of that approach he's concerned freezing and you can tell he's concerned like all persian king for the status of the office in protecting the earth or even reputation all kinds of things but you know i mean if there's something that comes up we can talk about some from the deal i'm not a totally close minded to with their empires and come around that much more of a much she's mode to them where we don't know deal what you mean deal to essay or elsewhere as the persians are kind of perennially open for business if you will like in let's be honest it could be some ritual is a shoe does but like what to write as himself has calm aren't on is the key buried or mountainside eventually allow carving so if you know what he decided the wanderlust can any emphasize sort of the thinking man's approached running an empire the two of derisive says quote i am not hot tempered what thing is developing my anger right hold firmly under control by my thinking and our i'm firmly rolled over my own impulses i have a strong body as a soldier i'm a good soldier macy who will rebel and who will not first battle think that i will act and call it there's an ancient line that money is the scene you wore and the persians were not the dominant militarily and everything in the areas where they lacked something the ability to come up with atomic cash as needed compensate for lago shortcomings and leave me a guy like darius understood that better than anyone the story in pierre briana runs down darius is qualities a bit and then points out how you know much of the change to purity inaugurating parisian history he is he says in the chapter some heading entitled a new foundation for the empire quote the ways and means of darius is ascension to power to the extent that we can reconstruct them are testimony to the new kings energy and decisiveness darius was undeniably an exceptional personality but he also proved to have organizational ability during the same time that he was reorganizing the entire tribute system other projects were carried out in various regions construction of new capitals the conquest of sam laws expeditions from the indus to the nadell in the year five eighteen he also commission the soundtrack area and use to gather egyptian say just to collect the quote unquote egyptian law as other measures affecting jerusalem were affected the same time what is striking the right is the care with which the king planned for the long term and quo in discussing the here and he inaugurated due to his energetic efforts to you create the support system long-term for something freon right school without the least deprecating the work accomplished by his predecessors we may thus assert that the advent of darius marks the foundation of the new dynastic in curing order in this regard the first years of his reign definitely represented decisive period in nineteen minutes history and cool while the revisions to the structure rough things that darius works out is the succession we try to create the conditions so that the way he came to power will never happen again what the first things he did this is a traditional thing by the way to do after crew were toppling the old regime in the middle east to wanna mayor reaching into the previous royal family 'cause remember this is all about some genetic blue blooded even if the king is a bad guy with a regime is is is overthrow bullet would be a good thing doesn't mean you don't want them blue wanting your lineage king go back to like you know pulling the sort out of the stone type legendary beginning to wanna have that in your blood line so darius takes care to marry two daughters of cyrus the great in his granddaughter some of these two previous wives of kim by seized by the why so one way i think it's like the ford motor corporation and henry ford big founder maybe he's like siler stay great and then you henry ford some takes over the company an by hook or by crook colonel mustard may intervene when all is also knew that this guy who wasn't in the family tree not the direct for many many guests and cars under something and he's running afford company and all of a sudden he marries you know the daughters and granddaughter of henry ford we wanna bes was married to henry ford someone who knows but eventually you know some guy from outside the direct line of the four family is running for motor company here's the thing now he may not be a member of the four family these kids will be so that's how you tie yourself back in the early royal line may change a few statues and your hydra tracks alluded to in your building projects historians are starting to think that they seem more and more than the entire lineage of darius connecting him to the great cyrus of old men humans would afford to do her first were first legitimacy is we called earlier once again smart darius become sticking it then expands persian a story more to the east of the empire which is which is territory to because the greeks didn't know much about y'all hear much about you know that happens though because soon you'll have sat trapped in the eastern or indian essentially with what's in our modern day pakistan is the part of india that the persians conquered one way or another dinosaurs teaching greeks were concerned that was like the end of the known world and nobody anything maybe it existed past that at the beach right engine and corns or the hostile barbarians as far as the eye could see maybe the persians knew that they weren't telling peratis darius will do some new conquests you know in in northeastern africa this is kind of like it's a total psycho blog older than he does the persian empire goes from these amazing you know startup company to agra three to a steady in our health a grocery with the empires expanding nicely thank you very much but not so fast that we can incorporate everything nice clean and absorb everything appears to be the inevitable long term outcome of things if you're looking at a map of this region and five fifteen by forty five thirteen b. c. because the persian empire looks like in the nineteen fifties horror movie block about slowly the new advancing in all directions is spreading out and just you know naturally absorbing everything on the fringes the while there are certainly natural limitations an empire could run into i reached the limits of communication for example or run into climate in farming hoping she can't deal with him i'm sure the persian army mystery can defeat the indian army in the interiors of india continued to you with the jungles and the snakes in the weather all black ask alexander a couple hundred years how much of an impediment that's gonna be continued u. which replication questions of course we're vulture always a threat especially or do you get but who's going actors in the time of the military counterforce to the great king and the persians as things stand now around five fifty five fourteen b. c. look at a map which there is no wonder have world war three would it the chinese baby if on fantasy matchup appear on the other side of the world their own little civilization of bauble if at all aware of the persians simply probably through you know some traders to action make the long journey but who knows so those armies on fighting so who was gonna stop the bomb been taken over literally everything until they reach their natural limits that's what makes this story so compelling that's what sets it up for the movie that rocked is gonna give you what he explained to you how you know this is david will be this go lie how someone will stop the blogger on the way thereby save everyone like so many other people who've been interested in the persian army from this period i became interested in them because i was interested in the greeks and the persians are the colbert adversary the arch nemesis right of the greeks from the neoclassical era and after while the book titled curious about these people that you know the classical authors mostly portray but you know even get this up until march and as sword zombies are for us only are formidable because of their numbers but their numbers are so huge that they're massively formidable millions awesome they drink rivers drive there are so many of them when you become a tiny curious about these people you want to get past these numbers after while i'm want to get into it the persians become so fascinating because they are the final installment of the ancient military system of the new reached the final development and that doesn't really mean the apex of its development because it's possible that that happened during the syrian times but the last of the army's feel good on principle that were developed in su mer react when nurtured by people like the assyrian smith babylonians before them the character's to a twenty five hundred year old military tradition as with the story nigel thomases in one shoe get rid of the very large numbers of the classical authors be turning them into orbit you realize how good they must've been a what they did to me that there were millions of them look how nasty the smaller numbers of the more look what they did look what they conquered if you believe the engine off the shooting you will of course they conquered all alone there were millions all the swarmed over the defenders as to what millions of them if they were roughly equal numbers and all the sudden refining quality of these persian armies which it always assumed the role was simply lowell it's increased the buy a lot and inequality begins to look like the kind of quality would have to have to win an empire like this and to hold it we told you in the first part of the story we're talking about cyrus the great news to him all these conquest with his army we kept talking about is army we couldn't really discuss with their army was like is there really know to shame too 'cause that's an army worth knowing about ray look what that did but by the time of darius to grieve sort of the meanest horrible little bit and gave you will look into the military organization in the equipment and whatnot i'm on the team in the persian empire in bide your right as an adult you could say it's the height of military develop a dish still fighting in a very high level they are a victory in the army that fights all locked so they have a lot of actual practical real world experience in the army is relatively on beaten they have a setback you're there sometimes but by and large have the places they wanna conquered bangkok good luck though getting any agreement amongst modern day historians concerning exactly how they did this because just because they have you're done away with those crazy numbers from the ancient sources the two million men type things doesn't mean that they figured out any better was automatically bedroom agrees on the numbers that the persian or mees brought to the battlefield not the entire number available to the empire they mustered everybody but these battles the famous and all the persian army how many men were there we see the ranges from all all of like twelve to fifteen thousand men and that a high of like two hundred and fifty your three hundred thousand men you begin to see what huge difference these different peoples have won how this army operated just to give you one example it's well known they call or you would call them maybe guards today existed in this army ten to twelve thousand men strong when you incorporate the extra super royal guards and that these troops worship you're you're keen general to most of the other troops on the battlefield they were what you would call to the regulars they may have been too will write the best troops in the army if your army is three hundred thousand men and ten to twelve thousand of them are these guys well you might not even be able to call them the tip of the speech you in an army that largely may just be the king's gar if on the other hand his armies are closer than twenty five or thirty thousand men strong in reality linda guard attended twelve thousand regular drilled troops is a third to half your entire army that's a huge difference is in effect a much better army sir right there that would impact in the impression of how these are nice did what they did it i will say that is a fan of the persian army it's been wonderful over the last twenty twenty five years to really see the more modern view of how we army fought was organized crystallized very exciting and this could change by the way down the road mean this is just the latest interpretation of the evidence it should also be pointed out the warlike talk about the persian army this is an important stretched over two hundred years the army will change involvement and can become different you're from the start of the empire to the end of the empire we'll freeze frame in a moment in time here but it's a moment that according to the greek sources pretty much determine whether or not western civilization would continue so which we're focusing on it's also we're focusing on because the majority of historians for more than two thousand years and come pointed reason that history when the way it did it down to a question of weapons systems on the battlefield and how they interact it strange as that sounds are no because we normally think of in the things that impact history is being eater massive show of force is like industrialization mixing with colonization mixing with the newly unified injury nationalists to germany looking for their place in the song all things together bro history changing moment right or maybe it's the extraordinary individual who comes along it just the right time when you don't have to see breaks your their bonior genghis khan of julius caesar oliver cromwell or tecumseh and most of the time obviously it's a combination of things right the extraordinary individual showing up just to determine the colonization news going which going in germany needs depletion assault rifles and working together boom of historical moment but another one of those areas we're history can turn seems also been all by comparison but he can come down to simple question of weapons systems on the battlefield and remembering mr we're talking about the battlefield is like in a twenty five hundred yards long maybe just on average and the decision for happens in a couple of hours one afternoon i can be determined by something you know if you go back to while the majority of historians even help probably the circling the waiter ron it to someone to question us something like whether natural armed with the speedier or ball or whether or not your weapons system includes a lot of body armor or does it and if you think that that's a little cookie well if you think about one side having firearms and the other side not you can see what a difference weapons system differential could make to one outcome of the battle you not to convince you to live that the way battles wars turn out to have issued impact on the way history goes right imagine if you lost the second world war the local differing is none to a great many historians for more than two thousand years to boil down to why things happen the way they happened to a question of how armies interacting with each other greek armies in persian army cid have to understand the persian army that can i go into these conflicts with agreed to understand what happens if those historians right the first thing to understand is that the persian army into two week ancient history war gamers and i know you're out there to wash dishes the army you get when you like a laudable fight i mean like machine gun lovable fire the body my mom said that you could historically justify giving every single person in the army during this time treatable with you want to but how many arrows does it take to blot out the so on during a news story of the last day and a three hundred spartans remember those clint eastwood tied to the lawns aurora to steals a story of a local person who goes up to one the spartans and says you know that the persian our church are so numerous that when they shoot their arrows they hide the sun nothing is one wiener day comes back in on the bravado from the shore to die sparking something to the effect of to be great because then we can fight in the shade but it's indicative of what these persian army was known for archery the news and hyperbole to suggest that they could block the sun with it don't you wish you had the yellow what these ancient battles to get some idea of what we're talking about here in the capabilities i've said many times and if i ever get that time machine on wannabe in a transport into a hot air balloon floating about a hundred feet over one of these ancient battlefields why concede you know what's going on all answer hundred questions about a minute after suicide ages visualized is no video to be very gory an awful if there were but look at it just to try to get a picture book were talking about here we haven't done this in so long and nobody knows what was like the same thing i'm starting western sword fighting techniques nobody knows that either every trying to recreate how people deed medieval sword fighting with the long sword based on still two dimensional images from books because no one kept alive the art form say the way the japanese did with their sword fighting techniques right that's alive and well but nobody knows for sure even with supreme darn good re creation doctor how western shore of fighting did you go do something for wild be one of the deal while they gave you lose the ability to understand it totally same thing with these ancient battles right oftentimes you seem to doctor speech which uses you or your best pieces of evidence to explain in color rise will look like leave out the most important part of the story goes to damages known stop right there right explain the most basic stuff to your money understand what happens when for example two blocks of human beings you know a thousand men strong run into each other during a charge right omar what what happened you're needed to historians if i was in my hot air balloon hundred feet over the battlefield i would finally be over into the question to those blocks of human beings actually wanting to each other and go face to face two to two toto woman claustrophobic warble squirrel much you know where people were so cramped again that they can hardly used their weapons and the people in the front row are being stuck wish to death by the people on the back and and and pushed on the disputed the rabbit series is that how goes or is it more like other history into the arise where it the last second tier something inherent in human beings were they won't throw themselves on the weapons of their enemies and they stop with us for an eight foot gap between the two blocks of human beings and no man's land he will with their stabbing and throwing stuff across the gap in the champions are burning out from each side and challenging each other in a no man's land in other brave people are running across to the other side and grabbing somebody out of the ranks and pull him back to their side is that how was there's other historian to split the difference and say that the unit to run into each other for second to none in over the first men and a half or two minutes or whatever slowly pull back from each other creating that dead space in the middle but nobody knows nobody knows if cavalry will charge him country you're under what conditions i mean it just stop still the beta by the expert because how would we now you could use of mathematics notion that herbal medicine nothing could but i was able to handle round numbers like this to try to get an idea certain capabilities most of the wonderful things about ancient workers that even if you can't know what it was like you can understand that there were certain realities to with physical laws if you will what's called the physics of the battlefield in pre gunpowder times their limited by it yesterday bedrock elements that don't change human beings for example horses other flesh and blood creatures like him was an elephant that rafi used in battles there's a limit to human interest in solidity human routers limits i'm also power and those sorts of the constraints were operating in the armies of the pharaoh in ancient egypt all the way to the armies of richard the second ally and hard you know in the holy land during the crusades there's something about in a battle over the arrows into gunpowder takes over where commander shrum different errors could command in our news from other errors and not been chewing teeth out of the water for them to understand what they were dealing with a certain elements didn't change when you're talking about the sorts of armies to these great states through against each other they generally included no close or infantry as as a sort of the walk are well which you built your army the battle was lying you would say in some periods a good estimate for it traditional set piece battle with the persian army might be a twenty five hundred or three thousand yorker meter front think about your twenty five or three football fields long and the solid line of man across atomic space the battle line we generally make up maybe if you want to just cut off the top of your investments in seventy to seventy five percent the jury side is made up of these phalanx is units of manpower shoulder to shoulder or next to each other and keeping that packed nature than staying together and in multiple ranks behind them the rank depth change the d. m. for ranks behind you that's pretty shallow formation in the hellenistic period you get some hellenistic failing says that although seventy two men deep the armies of this periods near east tended to be organized des somali to the small screen with the ten minute two hundred the thousand were told the persians and ten thousand in units the tweak that the persian sir suppose to have made more history instinct to the age old formations of these hearings and babylonians asked to do with how many ranks of archers to have versus how many ranks of spearman during nigel tell us is what made you point out that the serene spot in the babylonians copied them that she needed to have half of your units ready for him in combat the other half could be armed with missile weapons and so what they would do is pack the front half of the unit with the spearman it was a big speedier heavy big shield helmeted the code or more if you could as so if you enter formation that was it ranks deep first for new syrian army we used to be the hand and come back as the rear for the archers the archers which should over the head of spearman pretty very flexible formation any enemy will come to grips with you you can shrink from a distance any enemy you will advance on calls with you could weaken the former spearman have to engage in and hand combat anyone who just sits there you can shoot for awhile and anyone who comes and your unit you can kill 'em away in making these huge are freer spearman when he finally gets you historians into the persians tweaked that formation by taking out most of the ranks of calls we're him country disappear minute replacing them with archers often archers with little or no warmer and no shields most of these parisian units are gonna have a foreign wink of speedier armed shielded often armored but not always is infantry to protect the archers behind them they have a shield its maiden wicker but that looks like a bull the board for you americans of all most of the man sized hall wicker spying cut square and it looked like when all the front rank decided to close together those things are gonna stick together like a perfect wall so imagine in as seventy to seventy five percent of your twenty five hundred to three thousand yards bryant has a wall of weaker shield them from the protecting your archer should any missile buyer back but your archer for shooting over the heads of those troops and just blowing people away is why did some calculations assuming low numbers and every step the measure of fifty thousand men persian army which would be alone number believe it or not imagine that in that battle line that the persians to probably increased the fire power over syrian versions by a twenty or thirty percent more imagine that twenty thousand archers run at main battle on the charger fires about five arrows on it and they're quiver scary hundred and twenty bitches for the sake of argument will stick and they're not full more gilmore hundred rooms each that means the cross that battle i we troops were sitting behind the wall of wicker shields are shooting fish in a hundred thousand arrows by minute from the main battle line you know to win distance of about two hundred yards in front of the army beyond that they can shoot the effective range is a hundred and seventy five to two hundred yards they can keep up this buyer for as long as there must also hold out for until their heroes right now which is that we would be after about twenty minutes of shooting and after twenty minutes of shooting they would have fired two million arose now in countrywide armor might be able to withstand that but if you're wrong on horse in for that crowd you're dead you're driving a chariot and all and you don't get anywhere near it about a lot brighter blown away at a distance that's a great story military chains that they may do with the syrians if you're fighting the time enemies the persians usually are improve those assyrian formations unless of course an emmy in a hand in hand combat troops finally get to you is the way historian nigel tell us talks about you know this changes at the persians did to tweak the traditional assyrian formation quote it is likely that the battle array of this kind would be highly effective when facing the larger mounted forces known in the near east since at least the second millennium b. c. of course is a large and vulnerable target for archery well equipped in country is less vulnerable as the persians were discovered it is probable that eighteen informations fall below my tradition of maximizing the number of archers in the infantry units unlike the syrians who seem to have maintained a fifty fifty ratio of our church to shielded spearman and quo now it's tending to think of all this as minutiae of right war game or geek stop but if the majority of historian for more than two lenny are right this is the kind of minutiae that determines windy his battles were about to talk about gold we need you now whereas the majority of the persians and this time period are gonna be in that battle line we just talked about derosa vanessa cavalry in the persian sacred cow creek i've often thought of the persian army in this period as a more for lack of a better word barber riot version of the assyrian army at its height an authentic air show like ancient world to look at the roman empire to hide it so tempting to see them almost as light the nazi germany or whether all marching in almost lockstep goose step formation with in turkey persuasion immaculate drilled in or everybody's sleeping in the barracks everyone professional my whole thing and then i think of the roman empire no couple hundred years later we're the army's lost some of that spit and polish instead of having everybody with a majority of troops you know with the top being roman have you know some barbarians the romans who called a tribal peoples more aristocratic an enhanced delbert calls the persians i'm this period the cavalry nights so imagine the other problem or barbara iced version of the roman empire risk or me with norman's and maybe that's a little like what the persians are i think the persian to give these feelings run for their money but there are there's not as much spit and polish and it is more aristocratic tribal nobility the cavalry can fight like hell is a lot of 'em they fight a little bit like the skiff use in the hollows and the mongols and those people they shoot you in a from a distance in small units with bows generally it's got to the big unit of cavalry would go over to new word want to attack stated distance and then send out some units in the smaller squadrons would then go on to where they will attack on we shouldered jones an erosion shoulder pouch right back to the main body and then another smaller squadron comes and repeat the process until the unit that they're firing at begins to get old disorganized war der merwe outbreaks were they become so weekend that there are easy prey for the persian in country once they've run out of their two million missiles are our for many it is to come and mop up and core swanson army broke and started to run away all that persian terribly becomes absolutely lethal they do nothing better have we been running down fleeing rotting troops now this cow or re was for the most feared elements of the persian army and work in conjunction with the infantry in fact it's tempting to make a case that the persians mitre rationalized getting rid of all those close combat troops to replace him with our tree by suggesting that there are overwhelming cow or we could make up for the difference another battle sister required mining what the counter with which probably doing on the flight to what the infantry was doing in front in close cooperation to create a lethal combined arms took over production would work the persians also have those guard units we talked about they were called the immortals also called the attendant to the attendees probably armored may afford in similar way to the rest of the normal troops but just at a higher quality low also the persian jews mercenaries and hire them more and more by the way is the empire when on and lastly the empire could live eat troops from its own empire which is what it did with the main force is the main forces are persian m. monday in a life in the troops from the center of the empire but they have all these provinces stretching from modern day pakistan to modern thee lydia all the way the afghanistan and down all the way like practically saudi arabia tisch huge territory naked levy true for the entire thing when you read your prerogatives by the way he says that at least not from all units from all those earrings showed up the persians ruled over waikiki different people and robert is runs down more than forty of them know when he runs down the persian army she always be that we just talked about putting it all the exotic people from the periphery of the persian empire and rogers talks about the indian troops the u. n. the army he talks about the true true africa who will paint half their body white happier body read into pierced ears with antelope horn black troops for modern day sit down we'll talk about what he calls the black ethiopians from india which admirers terrific are probably twenty teams because there are their dark but they have street any recourse her helmet i mean it's a wonderful exotic liston historians think that part of what the persians were doing is showing the flag a little bit to these people that they were fighting basically saying look at the breath and scope of the people we can draw from this is how big our empire risk of being compass all these groups in nursing just a small number of them imagine how many are back at home we could call on if we needed them historians are bloody shoe or how much those troops play the role of a typical set piece battle but it is gonna shows that we can breadth of the persian king of kings ability to call on troops as needed and sometimes because of the specific skill you know i mean just gonna call the ethiopians mean for example that tommy no persians get the green is navy in the world like overnight when they take over the phoenician seabees there on the coast he essentially i would say some contract but there's no choice in the deal looks like the ceo darius of persia core renounces the acquisition of the phoenician navy and now the phoenician navy is a division of persia call the squinting like that but that's all you're with everything right we take over the local institutions only lead to build a leisure why as much as possible i mean part of the fond of running the persian army in ancient working with all these troops got to fight in their own local style again that was with the subsidiary of the persians letting you do danger when the cargo opiate according to the way we used to think anyone say it listen was to do well while we're very good at spear throwing okay why don't you do that for ross you be just like the phoenician the gear really good on the water according to history j. f. lazenby he lists the persian army is real strong point and they're all sort of above the tactical level the list intelligence has something to do wonderfully knew the reconnaissance in the net diplomats and spies and i'm urchins who were poured back in the yoshino quite a bit about the territories around them he cites diplomatic warfare as his number two thing that he says the versions of the huge advantage in as we've been saying they can ever always ready to make a deal measure the prophet lost you know about that thing and if you are so willing to make a deal you know when the persian army was a long way away the same diplomats with the army so that they just check back with me to make sure you sure are on the deal decision a new one f thirty fifty a hundred thousand men with them armed heavily lazenby says meticulous planning was one of your strong suit and if you would think it is inheritor so the whole mesopotamia tradition words record keeper in the ancient world read the babylonians of civilians all those people you think you chew inherited the ability to it handle that sort of thing will keep your record keeper books in the organized and that actually played and how far away from home when you could move your armies it is if you order meticulous planner those army starve when they get a certain distance away every guardians constrained by suitable range of motion to buy how will you could supply and finish your fact that we call the greek in persia wars will happen in greece shall issue in how good the persian planning was they to project their power a long way and finally last abuses of the u. had in engineering expertise that he says was culpable high award or in court basically greeks were the blown away by the persians ability to bridge rivers to deacon owls to knock down walls and this is really key we think about it we've been comparing the persian you know approaching conquest of territories expansion of the blog but the gossiping about what really slow think lava they just kind of you know one f three copper territories they just so ago when there and one after another slowly but surely knockdown reliably knock down walls of the city take it move on to the next sunday and is a very businesslike approach to the whole thing and if you weren't good that you would've been able to do with the persians did too many cities and walls and i'm such a huge part of conquest as i said before i would love to see what the soul looked like actually in battle i have to go watch by the way you some of the worst riots you've ever seen her on the internet and everything because you'll see oftentimes police to have been shield for like the romans anaconda packed into formations and you'll see the wire from the other side and flinging things and an attacking sometimes and sometimes cavalry comes into the teachers of okay it's not really apples and apples of all but they're certainly we get back to the physics of the battlefield elements to it that make me think okay maybe this is a little what it's like look at how those two bodies of people when they get close to each other look what happens when a horse enters the picture and maybe you'd just get the tidings taste of what the physics about all that everybody up until the time period the gunpowder took over what known instinctively or to experience motion picture common knowledge according to ancient greek authors the greeks had especially before you know the big tangle happened a healthy respect of very healthy respect for the great kings armies and capabilities groceries and up until this time this is an army that basically wayans but then sometime between five fifteen in five ten b. c. the rightist assigned to give this army one of those tests that are so difficult it would be a surprise me they didn't fail many great armies over history if bailey similar to us by the way he decides to go invaded the land occupied on the central asian nomads i'm becomes just another one of those u. leaders over time who found out the people who live on the wide open expenses of the step whether in ancient times or twentieth century versions of them have the option of simply retreating into the interior and you have to follow them ash napoleon how will that can work and that was in error by the way napoleon's time when they were cities and things that to be burned down and take in the secret weapon of these people darius tries to conquer if it does nothing to conquer the nomads there are no studies to run over urban centers and how you would you fantastic army do with them to discredit you to deal with you is to simply retreat from everyone keep going and going and going warrior supply lines get longer and longer longer 'cause guess what lord central asian shrub alma mater course archers and you can't just supplied a huge army whatever that means with lots of infantry horses and channels all sorts of things endlessly on a wild goose chase or in this case while sent our chase now there are two reasons why this kid to thomas historical attention because darius actually had to quell revolt against central asian people when we came to power this gets antonovich tension no for two reasons want a product is made to the key seen in his narrative so he's giving his performance is another opportunity to emphasize the wonderful colorful nature of the skippy into by his favorite subjects and let's be honest won't mind to it if you try to entertain people these people are the collar to really get historical collar and fearsome in nastiest period for all sorts of exotic costumes they played the same role in his story did native americans play in the old dime novel westerns right and is a similar field by the way i mean americans would recognize want the same things this tribal people share certain qualities in the same way for example that tried to obtain the gathering the confederation said the americans and we've always considered them fairly or otherwise to be in the next level one state development when you go from individual tried to confederacy standing together into super tribes like the your record confederation well they did this in this entire world of the central asian nomads and so the tribes that we action of the names or in fact confederation is that many tribes and it's a hard now for me to try to deal with when the central asian the barbarian nomadic people from the step of the traditional we see today probably racist but culturally the senate will begin with the names to describe the power roberts is views of the barbarians are but one thing to try to do with them when they break into your territory that hard enough trying to deal with them in their territory let's put it this way will be too long and down in the history were macedonian army is from the period of alexander the greater leaving their bones in on these desolate steps trying to chase down these armies of course moment it reduces story there are wonderful scenes he of course makes it a personal thing to put dialogue in people's mouths the skippy and you know they play the genghis khan whirlwind the story they are a combination of merciless and menacing and by the way out if you look at a map showing you know the route that to rise to it he crosses that little strip award the separates your permission in modern day turkey becoming an invader now from the ancient near east stepping foot on european soil and then moved through into the area east of modern day were mainly at an up and the southern ukrainian area i mean it's an enormously long hot c. l. rained burning pillaging looting whenever there might be in an attempt to somehow bring these people to battle but they won't stop running and reducing his account writes quote that there seemed to be no when did this pursuit which it gone on for long time to rise and a horseman died and your source king of the skippy ins with this message you extraordinary man why do you keep swinging when you could certainly do otherwise if you think you're able to challenge my power then stop your want ray and stand-up fight it out or if you would not legit chore too weak for that course that you should stop running away bring gifts of earth and water to your master or any injury to negotiations with him pinnacle sounds like a civilized kingsley approach right would settle this hearing now but that's not how they did business on the central asian steps ron it is as the replied the very scary no barbarian central asian the tribal leader let's go to this i didn't hear so's king of the skippy as responded it is my situation persian i've never yet fled from anyone out of the year before and i'm not fleeing from you now what i have been doing is in fact no different for more i'm accustomed to do in times of peace i'll tell you why you nodding gauge and now it's because we have neither towns nor cultivated land to worry about being captured raised which might induce us to engage one battle sooner if you really must come to battle without further delay know that we do have ancestral graves so come on then find them and try to destroy them and you will know whether or not we shall fight to the great about for that we shall not engage you in battle unless we see fit to do so he then says quote instead of gifts of earth and water i shall say judah kind of token you really merritt in response to your claim to be my master i'd tell you we that is your answer from the skippy and and a coke weep doctor greeting in the radha does his movie isn't it was this one has recalled by historic am a dent in the f. cool this kid you did not dare risk a decisive battle against the huge army of their adversaries been there for resorted to their beloved scorched earth tactics they retreated taking with them their livestock burning the grass and filling in the water pets in addition to the encounter we repeatedly attacked and destroyed small portion hunting parties the persians were worn out by their propriety pursuit of the ski teams deep into their own territory when darius was looking for a way out of this predicament this get the leaders in response to his demand that they would eat your cough or open battle or submit voluntarily sent a messenger to the persian k. subsequently if iraq does is to be believed to rise was presented by the messenger with a bird i'm miles of broad and by their rooms to write stop the dispute the ins does announced their submission the brightest however one of the seven conspirators against murders marty i gave a completely different explanation the persians could not fly in the sky like birds could not burrow under the ground like mice or jump into the lakes like frogs the nation expected die by heroes in court there's a lot of different ways to interpret this generally it's always been considered be some kind of a loss in the persians comes from going back to asia lucky to make it over the bridge of boats held by greeks the modern historians look at this number different ways what we choose these leaders old order sending food stamp tribes themselves who dealt with him all the time knew that you couldn't capture them were forced him into battle and so in effect what they were doing was something like what the chinese did it for millennia to try to control the people on their war sometimes you have to just punch it tom as launch a rain essentially with huge army go smack them around sometimes you can depose their leaders and put in a client king cousins and very apologetic had actually you put a parisian ruler like a sack corrupt world these tribal people to walk in the camp have to have a a tribal chieftain for something like that but you can hand picked that guy so in other words darius minute just punch these tribes exactly how we want to but the other thing that modern historians point out in which the issue almost have to look at this is a victory is that when king darius comes home supposedly struggling with the skippy in schools on his heels he leaves a general in the race three says in the modern day balkans and this general's orders are to continue the conquest and subject that entire area an entire area asia europe north of greece the northern part of the black sea a place where cities like athens depend on grain shipments of all the sudden are threatened by an army whose capital is located in modern day you were on but these persians were in the balkans this is the set up what's about to happen what's about to happen kicks off with a revolt and see these guys are in modern day turkey creek cities but cities that were under persian domination this time mini b. c.'s you were in a province of what we know what jamar the turkey asia minor called i don't yell to their called i don't ian greeks and miserable does call the idea we horrible it'll go off like war ninety nine to wait for ninety three b. c. the greeks were great colonizers tent cities all over the mediterranean not just the coast of turkey on the aegean like the city's they had many of the island is in the whole region were greek they had colonies on the north african coast they had i'm one outside of egypt they had many on sicily the handsome in italy and some in southern france and these are great ten kilometers and so they have causes all over the mediterranean i hope then induced to the mainland greeted the i. weems go for help after the rebel and realize all you were screwed up and for that held here were terrible terrible trouble so they sent a guy named rustic or worse and one of the leaders of this revolt back to mainland greece to essentially make a picture with a business proposition and in all this whole show was a sort of corporate business field but this is the way her rochester present the action has this guy going he would like a powerful increase and haitian first to the sport news and as him acting as a clever businessmen to try his cell sparta what intervention in their revolt against the persians that is what a great part of what it does we're not essentially he has the story of russia boris first going to kenya clean me use of the spartans remember the spartans had to obama shootings in this case the rich to chorus goes in there with his bronze tablets and you think of your real laptop powerpoint recent haitian any sit down with the sport of kings stretch given him the rundown of all the good thing usual get if you invest in this now why don't you were bold idea that i have here for you today this is for my purpose translation in the translates as he should by the way the word greeks as helene was so much ada leen to mean greeks unleash elected ammonium to me means boarding school according to be accountable like animal ins when he went to talk quickly yemeni is arrested morris had with him a bronze tablet on which a map of the entire world was engraved including all rivers in every c. a big in the discussion arista gora said claiming it cannot be surprised at my urgency in coming here for this is how matters stand that the sons of the i. millions of slaves instead of three men is a disgrace the most painful languished was also to you especially of all the others in as much as you were the leaders of house so now by the gods of the aliens come rescue the audio means from slavery are the same bodies you after all this will be easy for you double complex since the barbarians are not valley at what you retain the highest degree of excellence in war since they fight with bows and shorts beer's whirring trousers and turbans on their head there easily subdued further the inhabitants of the continent possess more good things of all the other people of the world put together beginning with their gold as well as silver or bronze colorful clothing be stubborn and slate all of which could be yours if you really desire them and co he then runs down every territory that the persians have at least the ones roberts is knows about them with each won he says what happens this one has won a gold silver this was a lot of cattle in islam as all of us slaves in other words he's running down the benefits right in this business proposition of hits the leaders barton says borrego way we think about this for a couple is a comeback in guinea my answer okay he comes back any asks a simple question of the sirs to go ross guy he says so how far is it from where we are now to win this thing is you want to know how for is to the persian couple how far away to when the swore that you try to sell me on at roberts is says at this point this business proposition goes our winner rested morris makes it he mistake he takes the opportunity to not lied to the spartans at this point this is how rotten to spur mind to selling court translation puts it you're right before the supposed to meet again for the spartans to give the answer as to how we feel about investing in the soil in rubble think whoa that was thus far is a god at the moment when the day came on which clearly need to greedy give his decision they met at the appointed place he asked of mr gore is how far off sousa was sousa the persian capital and how many days it took to retreat from the eileen coast up to this courage to doris had been clever and monthly emmys on with great success but in answering this question you made a bad mistake if he wanted to reduce the spartans to invade asia he never ought to what told the truth but he did annie said it took three months and co peratis running twenty five hundred years ago and we think is a great scene right that you must think about him is the so the sleazy in the salesman tide comes in here and try to sew up one over on the sporting king and then all the sudden falls into the trap this is three months is how long it's gonna take to get to the persian capital in cleaning it basically says get the hell outta here is it the oddest part by sundown are you crazy and so would instantly understand that this whole time he's been led on the rockets assisted him clean nice go back home in sales guy follows him prices star bribe him needed to do the deal go want to be fifty tell us if you do it again a hundred dollars if you attack at the end and the right to sizzle sporting or what the songs of cleaning users in the room and said suddenly danny madigan here 'cause this man's been a corrupt you things to go on the way to go on it's another one of those stories about the unprintable spartans now because he fails with the spartans the sirs to glorious character and then goes to the athenians who would be in a democracy now for ten fifteen twenty years and it's a short new kind of system they're running with beret and it's not like a democracy you or i would recognize but as her ron says points out instead of having to convince the kaner to his party had to investing your idea here are the last becoming convinced the majority of whomever is that makes the decisions here that they should invest in the idea that was voters marvin had that might be in an age in democracy this also from the disown court translation call he was at this moment when the athenians had made their decision were already on bad terms with persia the wrist igor estimate leaders would be turned our sport of ike leo money is right in athens he knew that into this time was the next most powerful state in greece accordingly he appeared before the people that made a speech in which you repeated the argument he previously used at sparta about all the good things to be found in asia and the persian methods of warfare how they use neither shields norse be years or more easy to beat in addition to this he pointed out that molina said unfounded biting in samplers so it was only natural that the athenians powerful was they were should help around her need indeed so anxious was he getting in a baby promised everything they came into his head into little last he succeeded apparently it's easier to impose upon a crowd than upon individual for which the glorious would fail to impose upon cleo money's succeeded with thirty thousand athenians once persuaded to besiege or wrist igor us is appealed the athenians passed a decree for the dispatch of twenty ships to wyoming yet but the command of the lamp yes the distinguished athenian ron distances the sailing of this fleet was the beginning of trouble not only for greece but for other people's and co but translation of that line differs book the book on translation is translation but that's the shire pond at the moment when it the athenians decided to do something with a little bit crazy because they essentially giving in at an erotic to speak for blames democracy for the setting up that was spartan king could see the fall on this dude proposal you know from the get go red spot at the flaw with the shark tank investor venture capitalists it that they had got here don't you try cheat me but three thousand at the inn you know voters are the electorate they're fake at the wall pulled over their eyes by clever salesmen right in the athenians sent twenty ships to go help the idling rubble the twenty ships is not enough to do anything except get you in trouble the city union ships will join with other ships they will disembark enjoying rebellious i million troops who will among other things bar in the provincial capital of sargis maybe accidentally and then the army will get caught by one of the provincial persian army is and crushed with heavy casualties at this point the athenians whose support for israel in revolted how wide and not a little more than symbolic but quite a bit less than useful the cannibal backing go idea what happened with anymore weekend tennessee echoes in a in an inconsistent policy were public opinion just what changes right is there smoking here is arrested course the public was unsure anyway and all the sudden maybe these persians didn't look like the pushover is that the salesman for the i. alien revolted baby yeah we're out and hopefully what just forget that this ever happened of course riotous makes a point to say that darius of course is not going to forget that it happened in one of peratis is great stories revolves around you darius trying to make sure that he didn't forget amongst all his problems you in his empire those people the athenians riotous story talked about after the burning of sword listen to rise gets the news about that court it is said the wonder rightist first heard this report be disregarded the i. no means continue the day at least would not escape punishment for the revolt we inquired as to who the athenians were an after he'd been told he asked for a ball it took the balk at seven marijuana stringing shapiro toward the heavens and as it flew high in the air he said zeus let it be granted to me to punish the athenians pakistan as he boarded with his attentions to repeat to him three times whenever his dinner was served by lord remember the athenians and quo that's how they did things back in the analog there are no word on whether the attendance name was seeley the last great story though it may be probably either just totally false or kill another way to look at is that this opinion problem all darius is so so small he had to have someone reminded every day three time to dinner otherwise she'd forget about all the things he had to deal with to show you what low priority this whole revolt is for the persian empire the great king himself doesn't even worry about getting on your ball he delegated to an underling it and the persians like slow moving labat methodically reduce these rebellious cities in asia minor and off the coast and it's often are awful for the retribution that these empires mete out to rebellious cities but let's understand that but something that much of the world is still treated rather harshly and this time period standard operating procedure was a big screen human experience so example the home city of rustic or ross the powerpoint presenter overwrought is he gets his city level loneliness is the name of it the manner for the most part too old but the boys were told her castrated and sent back to persia baby you mix the girls and women sold into slavery and so if you don't look at her wrist in gorazde waiter ron attested like some clever manipulator and instead look at him as someone who one way or another gets involved in this revolt but once you're in the stakes are everything and you see what happened is home city when they got the retaken by the persians he knows what the stakes are repeated every man dies rewarded castrated every woman in girl gets sold into slavery new studies level wouldn't you do anything wouldn't you by hook or by crook tell the athenians anything that they needed here to get public opinion on your side enough to send help and even though her radha to sort of makes this risk igor ross and his movie version of events out to be a little like professor harold hill woman music man come into so we're personally on the idea boys band for the instruments the full member sherlock and the people of athens released a sizable percentage of their own like to read as easily hoodwinked by professor hill it's clear that portly some athenians this issue of ideal mean freedom for greeks in asia minor is being compassionate unimportant historian peter green tells a story of a play it aired in athens right after the idling in revolt collapsed he says it may have been the first time that recent historical events as opposed to myths had been represented in the athenian peter the right call in the early spring up for ninety three the dramatist for nike is put on a play called the capture of moby dick's the diddley depicting the collapse of the idling in revolt the effect was remarkable for night just saw is audience weep tears of grief and patriotic shame starting to swift action in the pro persian lobby got the play band any doubt green rights fall back on censorship per night is himself was find a thousand drachmas almost three years pay for the average working man the idea of subservience to darius however reasonable it might be now rapidly lost ground end quote how modern does that sound public opinion altered by the popular portrayal of events that were relatively current while the historian peter green i mean in nineteen seventy in the shears and add to that we probably would she earned a living when and where we do the censorship is not a good thing censorship the heart is not a good thing in the public opinion should matter kind of democracy role of public it could not remember athens isn't what you could call the testing phase may be it how this whole democracy things can work there certainly must have been other democratic experiment the world over but athens is credited with being the quote unquote first democracy and they probably are given the scale of no first major attempt at the experiment that is democracy only ten or twenty years old at this point and if you're watching from the sidelines in your member of the conservative former but still powerful ruling class and you're looking at how how the dippy news doing so for that trying to you know govern things intelligently they've already done something the spartan king refused to do and got involved in revolted tweaked the nose of the great king of persia they've never had a chance of achieving anything really meaningful with the small on the people they said with just enough to get into trouble ya would you do that now this plane ride in writing plays to get them all fired up about confronting persia 'cause of all the injustices of darth vader an evil store empire if this is the same thing is like remember the main was the newspaper campaign with fire up americans in the spanish american war pure region gore war with spain it's a little bit different because in that conflict you could argue about historical justice 'em all back in the stock but the united states was gonna kick spain's rare rent so propaganda become public opinion to support the idea kicking spain's rearranged something that is not true and detrimental the country this is much more like the people in latvia being encouraged in the passions aroused an end and war fever stoked in order to come from the russians what did the mexicans not having the propaganda in the entertainment and public opinion everything pushing towards him going back and re conquering those states they lost to the united states as injury have to go that's something that in that case public opinion leading you towards national suicide but it already shown a propensity to get into trouble that's why you're on the integrate these naughty list already it's no wonder that goes on the stoking goes kinds of emotions of his time in his place that's an existential threat to athens to this point it is interesting the ability to portray the persians and certain people like though because if you actually look what the i. you mean grumbled about the persians go with it afterwards he actually did so in a way that was just typical of their style they punished with l. u. cities horribly as we said that the dominion in trying to figure raul why the i. o. u.'s camper bolting lords and taxes in places change to trade deals and others tried to alleviate the problem it's core and ironically enough because some of the city's admirable didn't like the tyrant unwilling them this newfangled thing called democracy the one and a piece of that too provisions let them have it remember they were known for allowing local customers it to stay in place as long as things to work out for them in at the local custom was gonna be two electoral leaders in your own city the promotions were fine with that as long as the city stayed loyal to persia so once again the persians panel look like the place we'd all like to live if we had the back in those days in the in an absolute monarchy running on the ancient monarchy scale we know the score very highly for leniency tolerance compassion common sense but if you're great you're not gonna look at it that way at least not if you're athenian the last thing you wanna do is have a king you have a democracy now the major spartan you wanna kane that you wanna spartan king last thing you want some barbarian king is so no people ever in the path of being conquered by any other people could see the up sides can you blame them but you know i've always thought that if you work and neither should be steeped in greece remember greece is not a unified place the budget competing often warring in some cases bitter enemy city states smart as a city state athens is a city street peach corps the budget places our gross what the athenian democracy did by sending those twenty ships to aid the ideal mean revolt is take the great king of kings guineas to most powerful figure in the world and turn it into your direction that he doesn't jesse happens he sees everything over there what is the people in our ghost do to deserve that they might've eventually been absorbed by the blob who knows the vp means essentially declared war on persia lived in the neighborhood that the persians could help would trample on their way to polishing the athenians this is partly why the story is magnified in terms of importance for the people in greece this is life or death to the persians this is a frontier disturbance the story she almost as a chapter in all the time would problems on the greek foreign to you restoring george clarke will entitle his whole book the greek wars instead of the persian wars because the persian wars makes it sound you like degree to talking about it because to them that's what this was but to the rest of the inner world of the senate of rome mesopotamia these were the greek or something over on the frontier something they no way you could ever imagine it could threaten me empire the athenians however we're doomed they knew what was coming stirrings hold three traditionally is a lot of focus on the athenian internal politics of the war party versus what the opinion sometimes called collaborators it word for word based on the the persians in the needs to be called and the dicing when you were media rising you were talking about collaborating are getting into the great king personally had these different factions led by different powerful families in a sort of sparring in fighting in an your wild in the existential training for ninety two b. c. he gets going led by pisano of one of the assassination hit squad members who also happened to marry into the royal family so we need to see how incestuous all this assassination squad thing is starting to meet his name is more don't use he's fascinating i wish we knew more about anything interesting in a persian general any takes an army end of wheat working together in a way we would call land sea operations today and we use amnesia crosses the dart nails into europe no nobody knows the sizes army eroticism which three hundred ships take that with a grain of salt but it doesn't matter but half that being this is a mammoth operation or maybe shinichi world the persians of course did not create your own maybe they took over the best one in the world when the task it with things it never could have been tasked with before like okay we want you to support a twenty or thirty or forty thousand man army with your navy that's a new level of sophistication operations of what the persians are doing in this conquest of greece which is something that they might have done egypt to earlier but this is what you really get a chance to see it on display is a precursor to elaine see operations today involving in a marine amphibious landings everything the sweet can be used to sit offshore and follow one or events marching along the coast feed it extending operations nobody knows how many troops martone assembly lines in this area controlled by three shifts the entire region around the balkans during this time period in this particular area of course is up an insult by where mater northeastern tip of greece is she not in that area all barge iteration tribes roberts is labeled of the second most populous nation in the world after the indians and peachtree warlike he said that they were conquered the world that they did love fighting each other too much and they are the more the so stereotypical about barbarians because all these people and wonderful cultures and values and religious beliefs and and and that young puberty writing it it's all part of it but you can't help but look at iteration think you're sure hollywood casting directors idea of a barbarian they look a lot like the skippy and without the horse they got the warp they dig up the tab tuesday like to cut the money terry severed heads around with the lender trying to intimidate their enemies and their top any light ambush is an elected till prisoners i mean they scare people the syrians admitted to darius this whole area we came along chasing us getting into while back but she now all the persian army name goes home in the kind of in a gay little lax in yet we haven't heard from awhile onion what whatever and then the army comes back and says you know which is to take their relationship and bit more and made all of those areas that in formally sort of just get weird apostles congealed into official provinces run by governors appointed by the persian king what are these provinces is that these that is the next little kingdom my gift you could say on the way the greasy go from three east to macedonia if the name rings a bell the king of the time will you're bringing even harder rich name is alexander alexander the first of macedonia to know he does when the persian army under martone shows up he submits that comes a governor and the control the persians and some historians and wonderful our roddick twisted history say that if not for the stability and centralization of state building a climate that the persian control your gave macedonia during this period they may never have coalesced into a strong centralized state that would eventually evolved into something they could destroy the very people who made that centralized state possible all in just for the fun of it do it and reeking with the same name but just love the history nonetheless the to ration tried to get one good soccer punch in the omar joanie us before they get crushed brutally a tribe of them will ambushed the persian army at night and create great havoc including wounding martone us right around the same time this fleet that is accompanying the persian army will try your roundup we called mount happens the peratis is assume you know it's like going around the tip of florida i think about it that way and as soon as the fleet hits the tippit gets hit by we ins strong winds according to her rotten system he says three hundred ships are in twenty thousand men died here's what my purpose translation of peratis says quote from basso stiffly crossed over and sailed close to the shore of the mainland optima campos for which they set out in an attempt to round mound outpost but as they were sailing around it a strong north wind came up on them which was so impossible to deal with the batter them badly and wrecked many of their ships against the shore of mount apples in fact it is said that about three hundred of their ships were destroyed with more than twenty thousand men and since the sea is full of savage creatures some were snatched up and killed by them while others were dashed against the sharp rocks some men parish because they did not know how to swim and still others died from the cold so that is what happened to the fleet there and call it i'm sorry my head right now are distinct myself we don't look like three hundred ships twenty thousand men but somewhere between thirteen and fourteen taipei makes going down in terms of lives lost if ron it's his numbers are anywhere near correct but even more from a visual standpoint is the idea three hundred ships whacked all i mean with them and they all bunched together in one place shortly scattered around an entire coastline what is the visual on the civil law does is doing the movie who's doing the cinematography on that and how much do we have to use you see gee i'd computer graphics because there's no way otherwise too initial dancing how much would cost to do that nineteen fifties elizabeth taylor richard burton style right analog have to get three hundred eight ships and i mean think about the visuals is just all the people in the water mean everything that people find so horrifying and i'm going down the titanic you have happening nor rom around athens you know you think about precarious is a maritime traveling in bad storms will sink ships today sui all know while before the back the golan history in general the more we could be these vessels become during this period bikini like to stray away from the coast very much they're operating procedure was to beach the ships at night and in the morning pushed them back out again there been she had to be still the jump hundred forty eyes are red it took two up essentially lift the trier remove onto the shore at night so i wonder how much it took to actually give these be sweet trouble but the idea of three hundred vessels going down they rounded the cape it's just the bomba de mining if you can find historical examples all over the place among the most famous has to be the kamikaze right the divine me and when japan was saying and enough from the mongol horde because the storm came up and battered the fleet think all the ships scotch to the invasion right maybe this was a greece's own version of a kamikaze the one thing that the greeks new is that this was not going to save them this kamikaze was not the deliverer it was a delay or and in amy year two years the riders will have his next invasion force ready to understand something three hundred ships lost twenty thousand men laws that will stop most ancient empires in their tracks the persians methodically just put together a number one you've been for ninety each ready to go and it is bigger he used nastier he's going to be handled better and we're going to take into account everything you learned from the failures of the last expedition at this time is going to be aimed right at the heart of africa us and it's tempting to see the riots in his ceo rolled has already seen that the odds are massively in his favor mean and so let's deal casino in the sky the battle between athens and the persians is off the books denied taking bets on that there are no odds there is no chance and darius is still trying to you italy age you're there he leaves no stone unturned planning was he sends out envoy is in the year between you know the first expedition and founders off the rocks amount outpost in the one coming up the sun's envoys to greeks they go all the decreased eighties greek islands of me ask her first and water remember earlier we said that was the traditional token of submission the most of these places give it to them vast majority island the budget creek state two notable hold out slow at this tomb either throes of their persian envoy into a pit that they usually have for convicts awaiting execution or throws them off the cliff take your pick and spartan to one of the famous moves of all time although some historians doubt it never happened supposedly throw the persian envoy in well when he asked for some water and tells me to get both of them down there that kills the persian on void and put both the spartans and the athenians he if they really do that on to the ledger all of you know misdemeanors and high crimes of the persians are keeping track of remember what happened to the egyptians when they killed perversion envoy is him by c.'s get disappear and watch a thousand or two thousand other kids executed new sold into slavery the bomb to preach to the states and high winds shows which you probably have to see is the only realistic answer been submitted for the water to the persians as ass and instantly becoming not just neutral the struggle that athens is about to engage in but at the series mean other city state in greece all the sudden were subject to the great thing that's like the slow moving labat on the other side of the g. in all the sudden launches amber's in the sky the drop down city state increase in your actions the great king is going to live the troops from these other greek cities to use against the opinions of haiti already we're gonna crash or little greece with your persian forces when i was isolated leaping into the most part the spartans with them to now he does come across that little part in greece now he's going to add greeks to the states to his side and their armies to his and this is a guy who really likes to load the dykes right when you hear the scale of this attack what it takes to logic usually in actually new appreciation for the capabilities of ancient peoples you really do think you're so we do this today if we had no computers in all the modern stuff we normally use a mean you try to take much to say fifty thousand new stadium sized crowd of people and transported over water and land belonging way and not have it be a catastrophe historian tom holland you know has both of the general's of this expedition one guy's name is part of crannies and he's related to the royal family the others called the disney to me then they come in this expedition from their eyes he has them see the preparations that were so large in massive him one on for a whole year and there's no doubt the athenians news was going on holland writes quote every day is jury westward brought them fresh evidence of the barely believable scale of the great kings resources the labor gangs toiling to maintain the roads all populations sometimes transplanted from the furthest reaches of the earth the guard station beside every bridge every flotilla pontoons every mountain pass the troops in their own re are not merely persians and needs but levees drawn from further reduced factory and soggy n.'s an ax wielding suckow all was athens to people such as the eads not even the name yet on they marched directed by the will therefore awful scene came back and every evening no matter where they halted these men from the steps from the mountains from the villages of rhonda they would be provision down a monstrous depots supplied from julie would jugs of wine and loaves of bread and barley for their forces and when at last having passed through this you re engage in descended into the plains of the week yet on the southeastern coast of modern day turkey it on there waiting for them in immense fleet of ships some builders weapons of war others as horse transports and quo in the history of naval warfare with the persian surmounted do here it's hard to find an earlier version it's hard to imagine that that anyone moved tens of thousands of troops across the water and landed them in like an amphibious assault situation with the persians are doing here is breathtaking ten per member two years ago your nafta good two years ago they lost three hundred ships and twenty thousand men doing something like this so they know what might happen this time by the way they're going to go much more direct route now that is going around more way in supplying the of the army were to transport the army on the ship to more than a pilot hop across the g. in from turkey greece and take the islands on the way you were in greece especially if you're in athens hard to imagine those folks feeling a whole lot different than the british in the second world war after france fell in the new pages new okay bring sure self i mean the storm is coming to the athenians in four ninety the storm breaks in the summer for ninety b. c. e. the persian expedition gets underway radha to says it consists of six hundred ships now modern historians are done a great job poking holes in the ancient authors numbers were talking shooter man but they have no real agreement over what number to plug in for them up and it's broad disagreement introduced ranger not even sure what the gold is me she needs this is a mission just to punish athens and some other in a small island friends and whatnot well if so we require one size force if on the other hand this is an expedition with the intention to punish athens and concrete rest agree she need another size force or even trying to figure out you know your number's recorded make certain assumptions and historians differ i mentioned earlier that this operation is really a difference for cooperation the more you saw before this period the persians as we said may have done this already bought the generation before when conquering egypt but an earlier period you always had naval warfare but was something more like a glorified version of what the vikings didn't ask what the persian to doing is really the precursor inedible eventually have all been to save the d. day landings in june nineteen forty four it's the father and mother of that because when the trojan war is happen for example in the mighty news come over from the other areas now grecian invaded the trojan war they come over on ships to do but they don't bring a sophisticated horse transports and food carrying ships and do nothing would bring the supplies to keep everybody fed watered that's a modern day operation when the senior pupils came the egypt in ancient times they didn't bring horse transported everything he needed to supply an army with them by c. in nineteen forty four when the allies crossed the english channel they did and they did here too by going island hopping on these islands in the aegean relatively close to each other the persians can avoid having to cross like a large courage of open water the gulf place to place to place and in almost a temper which is beach to shut might some cities good the destruction treatment the first woman go to phone call me back so cynical and some payback to that one up and so you know the population fled up in the mountains places get burned in a bad things happen but then they arrive at another island what did you supposedly the birthplace of the god apollo and the population and away the ross gear the persian stop in the tub and come back and affinity europe because that would need to do anything merely submitted then the persian general goes up to the to the altar of apollo and thorns in our own regis amount of frankincense so of massively over tipping the god as a kind of a way to say listen in the wound around this god's gonna give even more than the issues do you know when you were taking care of things in it's the carrot stick approach to the persian so we choose been a good one other city and they rip into shreds the city's name was under which we have who was war two cities along with athens it really support the idea we were told so what's on the hit list for the persians and they hey kid damage of the divisions that seem to be in almost all these greek city's maybe not sparred about maybe even the sport at using her gold their promises and is carried a stick approach of yours to essentially you know to herod the greeks up from within to exploitive patients that are really exist for the greater damage is the persians have against agreed to the are you an idea in the greeks art but it's not just a division between the city state in our ghost does not belong the spark that its divisions within the city states for example here's how can a dent any of the scribes what happens when the persians launch this expedition to the islands and begin to punish people called persians disembark on maxims which was still independent they conquered the island and pillaged it the majority of the people of the island fled to the mountains there upon the persian army sailed to the town of eritrea one you'd be out at that time eritrea suffer from the strong antagonism between two political parties the aristocrats more to defend their term while the democrats were inclined to surrender the eritrea is offered resistance against the persians for six days on the seventh day the democrats are rendered there should be in the hope that the persians would give them the power over eritrea the persians however burnt and destroyed the city and it's temples were led away its people in the captivity they were deported to sousa in modern day wore on and there upon by wars of darius settled in the village of a direct out in the u. my district it is yeah in equal supposedly the great kings orders to his generals had done to reduce their retreat and athens to slavery and then to bring the slayings to him american i'm always assumed that to be rhetorically money doesn't mean really like scoop up all the people in the city state put them on the ships to the ship's back to the asian mainland and marched in three months to him in chains and sousa deceit and i remember that the people then move a whole populations of other people since time began running what do good-looking history to a lens of population movement and start by determining that there's two basic kinds voluntary population limited involuntary population movement is that moved into people's one to go elsewhere in the movement of peoples that somebody else wants to go elsewhere joseph stalin was to win the scum stuff in the nineteen fifties was me so maybe not that hard to believe certainly if you were the athenian as you get word about this eritrean disaster then you get an idea of which are very near future probably looks like can you let divisions within your city every day is content to systems that brought down eritrea and he can't help but notice want again that in a very modern move the persians are taking advantage of this with them leading them guiding them in helping them up on this expedition towards athens is a guy that used to run the place they're bringing back an old tyrant and i stress the word old 'cause that would rot to stones this is a guy who ruled the place before democracy broke out in the persians are bringing him back the rangers did the meeting today in regime change and they're bringing a foreign army to back it but the assumption is that this cordelia budget people in athens to welcome this from the other party if you will supposedly there are high signs all kinds of other things of the conspirators and those who want the regime to refer back to the in old days mean the city divisions in athens are clear they're open their talked about by the primary sources and the persians appeared designing a strategy to take advantage of this it seems just like and as many hogan ruled as fractures very political place will lead to bring somebody back in her nose to lead in the land unless the support of a percentage of people are ready and that faction in athens is opposed by some of the most famous people in the story if you're looking at it from the traditional greek one of you guys like domestically used to a lot of historians compared to what your churchill figuring the story and another one name mil tie eddie's who will play a key chain or whirlwind this upcoming the face off the word not happened according to the robinsons who used the former athenian tyrant in between wheezing and coughing fits that supposedly tells the persians the best place to land for their amphibious operations applying called marathon about twenty five miles outside the city of athens it could call it the staging point for your amphibious operations i download everything that i get yourself all put together in the new demarche on the city for you can just act as the incentives for happens to be a change public opinion favoring more these people who were saying would be great to have the old highly back at the same time will be released about cutting their losses against a great king who now as an army twenty five miles from here by the way dimension that in a war party finished ugly is well chinese we can do about that of course this leads now who is famous encounter first on the athenians do the smart thing the sender ron are which boggles the mind when you think about how this is a like forget the issue to send a horseman know they're headed the reason why i don't know what it is leave it to his story to explain why somebody would ron despite half but that's what they do the sender runner because they need help and you know who you can recall most increases are we working out with the persians and besides the spartans could take all the rearranging combat anyway said the runner to the spartans and begin to put your own house in over a picture soldiers together and this is with the story once again you to focus a bit on the soldiers we describe the persian army earlier he pointed out at that time that there's a real importance to things happening on the battlefield level practical questions to the impact the rest of human history because member this is a encounter that should be off the books of the bening casino the celestial casino mean this is the great persian impairing compass in most of asia least the party should anybody knows about all we be india and after us what is gonna make resistance anything other than concrete be futile maybe the weapons systems it's gonna crazy to think about when you realize how long military history has been happening in places like you know the the middle east right or or pork china or any of those places they've only got thousands of years of military history under their belt but in for nineteen really does this error rate we're talking about the c. e. it is the emergence the beginning the entrance on the in a historical stage of european military history now obviously there's as much european military history is there is anything else if he can enough we had the tribal records from all the peoples that existed on what smell the european continent going back to ten thousand b. c. e. o. we don't the storage can try to reconstruct the assumption of dark a shorter were wiki removed on greek history you know during the time of the trojan war is up by and large you're the first record we have a european armies are these armies were talking about right now in greece the vast majority of them made up off the average everyday folks dressed and equipped and fighting is heavy infantry that because this is the earliest form of a western military history you you will how whole schools of historical thought and they were dominant for the last twenty five hundred years most of the time that will assert that there are qualities he leaves greeks peter what makes them fight or how they find or the theories behind how we you should fight there have been influenced maybe even need western military dominant for the last twenty five hundred years we're sliding afraid you might hear from someone from the victor davis hanson schooled in a historical pull on these questions for example the idea that the greeks were people who believed in decisive battle and that we ourselves are the inheritor to modern world that same idea mid to hold me the d. get lost in the rabbit hole and i will leave it to the angstrom historians you know the hanson's of provocative character but he gets a lot of push back in the great argument for people like yours truly to watch but part of what makes the ancient purina war for so phone for a guy like me he is that you get to see the most variation between cultures and people so societies in their influence on war for the new c. in any other appealing to the woodworker standardize now if you look at a military i'm same arnie south america i compare it to one for modern day asia they're gonna be dressed the same good abuse in the same equipment there one reason for similar tactics i mean the difference between the two will be minimal standardized but the farther back in time you go especially to the ancient period all of these cultures are in your most exuberant shall we say flamboyant maybe and distinctive so cultural incarnations for lack of a better phrase they all look very like their culture the fight in ways that are connected to the cultural organization everything the contrast is pour water love about that the jury when the provisions of the greeks first meet in this period we're talking about right now this is a clash of cultures literally and that's part of what makes this such a rabbit hole stereotypes and motifs and everything like that to go down because huge been as west east dynamic ever since but you can help but notice the wonderful distinctive does resemble the persians are combined arms army we talk about them you've all these different than she talked about for she talk about the cavalry did you talk about the white tricked me talk about the law in country the greeks don't have much of that during this time period they have heavy infantry pop lights you were war gingrich for what makes krieger our mission is to return a boring everything you get isn't this a hop white basically the hop like is the quintessentially greek heavy infantryman and there would be examples of historians often look to to try answering on in trouble but fascinating question in especially from the pre gunpowder new purina military history is to wine some people in and develop weapons types of weapons systems a soldier read the others can imitate me why are there samurai japan why can't the chinese emperor just aside one day it'll samurai really bad house why wasn't it was one get a disgruntled samurai bring him over your lead in trade my guys are given the same weapons and armor it soon all have satellite to weekend today can you do something culture will write the cultural carrots and sticks that reinforced by the japanese pupils decided he can create samurai to schedule want them in history when the roman legion earrings were ringing supreme during the roman empire period other commanders tried to imitate that they're known as imitation legionnaires by the way go get a couple century n.'s by the same or more weapons all have legionnaire least two but they never quite measure that just can't is that they have to be some of the cultural aspects that are very hard to reproduce same thing with hot lights historian victor davis hanson he is a remarkable and to stick in his writing he says quote for nearly three hundred years from six fifty to three fifty b. c. no for an army despite any numerical superiority withstood the charge of the greek phalanx the battles of marathon and put am demonstrate this clearly relatively small numbers of well lead heavily armed greeks had little difficulty in breaking went through the hordes of the more likely equipped unless cohesively rain to have the series from the east and co why this is a fascinating question upon your new goes down roads that are on quantifiable one on measurable when you start getting into questions of things like topless how on earth to one measure toughness and how wish to have his infused if you could take all the children from a so called tell civilization and transfer them to the better in terms so called week civilization whatever toughen week mean in the military sense and take the children to the week civilization give them all to the parent of a tough generation the generation from then do you change the power relationships of all does the week civilization stay we could to get tough and vice versa annan mor what is toughness anyway what the heck is this dominance to the top one time or could be something that simply based on that the way they fight in their formations in their weapons and stuff like that this is the stoppages story is argue about victor davis hanson probably is the u. leading proponent of what maybe you could call the traditionalist approach to thinking about how polite says he told them at one point in one his books are criminals away he phrased it he called them heavily armed and armored farmers and each city state is a little like a sports team and they all have personalities are undefeated of the pittsburgh steelers just how full color you guys in a truffle it in the worry that they play in the toughness of the team is the little like to know you have besieged city state of rustic former son in order be kind of brawny to zero without their farming but the real ross becoming every every city state canceled its own karma reputation and on record versus the untraditional almonds are the sport is doing against the archives from some of the city states were considered to be tougher than others but according to the traditional approach most are blind or music or militias they're the citizens of the city state usually just a percentage of them but because in some points out nobody eighty percent of most of the city states were made up of far richer people who made money in farming athens and sparta roar always kind of exceptions to the city state rule by the way athens is kind of the new york city or the paris or london i'm going to greece and it's a little bit more chic little bit more gossip the lukewarm gossamer into the theater in the latest trends in very good the politically speaking talented funny humorous wonderful entertainers the spartans our laboratory experiment i love these things we use human beings is the guinea pigs on whether or not you can create a soldier you know that extra special of all the societal characteristic sir range correctly where was growing up doors of tom admiration for sport in the system and everything nowadays even conservative historians are much more hard on the spartans system than they used to be the victor davis hanson himself will say about sparred accord sparred is closed militaristic society produced an army are professionals immune from pressing economic or rather peacetime obligations they were free to threaten the forms of others to fight your round if need be secure in the knowledge that in their nightmarish system of apartheid servants were busy with their own harvests and co yeah there's all kinds of debate and discussion disagreement among two stories about a lot of things i'm your victor davis hanson on court t. get a guy like hans van least for example one another and he wrote a fascinating book called greek war for me it's unreality is that i'm still trying to get my mind right is it sold challenging should traditionally stuff to make it true or doesn't make hanson true as one reviewer i read said maybe it's more like something in between the two is true but on weise says that everything we know about hop why warfare comes from a later period in the house fifty seventy five years afterwards and that the army's we're talking about here i'm much more washed it even than the ones you're from classical greece is it's called the system archaic greece to him he says the only reason that the spartans are considered dangerous a lawless 'cause they're the only greeted me state the prepares for war had all with that line and we're we're vernon's blind the one-eyed man is king it may be the spartans are so bad ask compared to anybody who actually trains for war it seems radical but this point is that most of the city states are simply getting all their people together in other wars to fight the thirty or forty percent of the male population out there free male population actually fight when you get them out they are they're not trained to move as a group have to follow commands into drills what they gonna do out there and don't we use is pointed to the spartans actually did do that drilling which made them seem almost otherworldly to these armies where are you guys just got together one day we were needed for war imagine you know yeah this be your answer more reduce it's over your your fireplace and has needed once or twice a year or maybe once every two years you don't the armory in the up with everybody in your neighborhood that you normally fight within you go up there for the day and you try to be the bring city state or in ice water flee labeled flat field of battle with some certain rules probably wouldn't leave the bees greeks had ruled but you're not too many of us are going use bol was arrayed in like that right this is a man on man contest right in terms of weaponry degree top flight was spearman wielding a seven eight nine foot long sometimes we even europe longer long speaker the best beer was only about an inch thick hammond irons be your head and a bronze bought spike on the end on the story into that was called the lizard or what about it means it sounds awful the literature on and that these troops would form up in very close formation shoulder to shoulder essentially with their shield in front and hirsch be yours no ahead of them now this means that the spears for brought three or four ranks behind the front rank courtroom to be on the front of the formation together pin cushion here usually the ones behind that would keep yours yours pop the hopwood formation is called a phalanx we now know as we didn't maybe fifty years ago sixty years ago that the phalanx is information that has been used ever since very very ancient times mesopotamia new cities were using a long time ago bombed by the greeks may have formed even closer than the normative aided in debatable the one thing that these formations have real problem with these any sort of difficult terrain in fact the even just a little on even ground because if you're trying to stay shoulder to shoulder with the person next to you in front of you i'm behind you at the last thing you would do is running to for example some bushes and listened to your formation victor davis hanson zip approach to thinking about how the state like spot would make it seem something like a very very very pointy irresistible steamroller unusually they would put the best man in front and and oftentimes the best men in the rear filed two but the least trustworthy brave experienced what have you man in the middle of the formation because then there's really no way out and many of the people who write about b three top white phalanx of how far will point out that it doesn't require atomic weapons drill you ought to really learn how to do much in the way of you know the great warrior rather with swordplay you're using this be your like at like a shaolin monk in arlington is not that kind of things you're more apart of the machine in the phalanx and the greek authors in the modern historians opposite of what seems to be stressed to the sources is much more we were called to the physical fitness inter runs strength back from the bank at partially explains why he could have old people fighting in the spring alliances why everyone doesn't have to be twenty five like in today's military will pardon is it's a militia writers opposed to get a cross section of the public but also because in the formation like that older people are required to be so nimble the arthritis you can be more control me just so stay and do your job standing die in war you know conqueror and move forward but all was a part of the smash working together in fact the older people and both experience and saluted the yemeni date had in a veteran status and they could help stiff in some of the younger newer soldiers in the formation and some of this is believed by some people to try to explain may be why these hot line to do so well when a patient on hop like you why they take an aspirin overdose to the armor wall boarded the platform or is it along spiritually body to build long spears unhinged gertrude what makes them do what they do what makes samurai so good what makes mounted night so good for me to mongols so good what makes apaches so good hence always also has another idea about foreign such he points out that well when i let him explain how he sees the development of armor is different from everything we've always learn to cope as scholars had traditionally reconstructed the history of top white equipment it follows in the perfect bark beginning in the late eighteenth century we witnessed the gradual introduction of hopwood armor culminating in the universal adoption of the full hop like an employee in the middle of the seventh century than from the middle of the sixth century onwards part of the panoply begin to be discarded and so by the end of the fifth century we reached the rather lightly equipped top white already described this tiny picture need some modification and co in his opinion that the or were these kind of the biased in what it shows for the artist was to show the biggest bannister i would the coolest look in armor sometimes i'm paraphrasing confronted his story please point is that it when you actually look an archaeological finds all this other stuff it's probable that this was always a cost that in and when you throw people of different well classes into a large body of people and tell them to wear their rome's stop this is sort of the whole market all of the you'll see the state except partner asia by and bring your own get right so everybody's kids can indifferent to personalize can sometimes they all go down to the neighborhood market michelin helmets and roll like and we did find the same time but if you put all these people together on battled a it doesn't look your uniform and because of this we're told there's even conspicuous displays of a rich guys come up and drive up in the bmw dry they have that that would be our horse hair crashed it's triple what may be ostrich feathers sticking out to the really cool braun's armored installation of the name is two thousand pound thing in the port guy shows up in some leather jerking her maybe some in a thing of winning they used to think it went from the balls are more than doubled women or it might just always been a cos question and more wealthy the phalanx in our members were the better the armor latino well while the experts may disagree you were discussed quite a lot will say you questions of what hop why was or how they exactly followed we can say with a pretty good level of certainty can we that goes with that trooped regardless of what they are that athens is going to have to rely on it if they are going to turn back this parisian amphibious assault twin engine awhile ago the plans of a place called marathon on twenty five or so miles outside of athens they will be lively debate in this one to flee interesting democracy and athenian democracy in some ways your mind you little of the early french revolution in the sense that their democratic about like all kinds of things like the late general us i'm cindy feebly for robert as they like multiple generals who then have to your share command somehow maybe buying and is my duty to mosher day i mean in that sense it at a radical democracy and in all kinds away is there will be a debate in the sea view of the best course of action in dealing with the purdue given to the versions of the realism forgive you before for the city and state your hugo lot and meet them eventually partly by a guy named ill tidings we mentioned earlier they will put together there how polite and maybe they are attendance the debate over how much the people that actually held the armor for the hot lights mimosa hop which redefine with those guys do they pick up javelin sinn fein is light infantry lot of debate over that too but after supper together ten or eleven thousand of these citizen militia soldiers who may be train every now and then as you know some sort of yearly event or what not and they certainly would have experienced fighting but man from differ social classes men from different age bracket up to you guys in there for he certainly and prominent people lose a lot of prominent people who will forever afterward remember that they thought in that phalanx that they they will take off for marathon even that famous order or something to be effective to take food with them in march the grand provisions and go and so the citizen militia of athens takes off dear joined by eight hundred two thousand hollow point from the small city state of tokyo and then they go and put themselves in a blocking position to keep the persians from breaking out of the little beach area in expanding out into the countryside and then they sit and hunker down within sight of the persian army in this face off which goes on for a couple of days i'd try to keep her mining myself on the intimidation factor to something that tends to diminish over time but the persians and this time period alike the heavyweight champions of the world only a certain or about the little rock his comments about this he says that these athenians came down through the first two into war he says quote the site of the meads calling him the men wearing it he calls the persians needs he called the greeks helene sneezes quote in fact until then even to hear the name meet spoken would strike terror into her wings in the coup so there's a jim edition factor here there's also a no tactical reality that the greeks understand the persians have cavalry and how were you something that the greek way of fighting without extra troops around can deal with a mean if your information we're the number one thing you have to do we stand shoulder to shoulder with the guys around you and not break formation trusting your doomed how'd you do with cavalry d. you can catch they can ride up she was small swan guns and culture with john loans and an issue move out to deal with them run away and if you chase them you break your formation and in your meat for that same tauber we're ready to come in there now that you are all disorder and take you apart the greeks also don't have our church the one thing that might keep that calgary at arm's length right away to respond at least a tactical level that i that either but the persians do lots of them so that she became telfer was wondering what to do the other reason than historians think it's a logical thing to wander back that the athenians are waiting for your for spartans the center rhonda restore order remember as opposed to a championship cherry driver or horsemen and we don't understand why the u. to record time so who's been argued the news person tells the story to me you can't let this greatest city all greece get wiped out and taken by barbarians most artistic ye yeh will be there but we're in the middle of religious or right now can't make it right to second but as soon as the moon get in it is proper phase were there and so the athenians awaiting of the spartans and you know hopefully nothing happened before then the storage wonder why the persians were waiting also in many theories center around the idea that they're waiting for you're the coup d'etat to look around athens right for the people here do you know that the realism partying which the war party would call the collaborator party to me geysers just waited for those guys to get the upper hand so saying histories think maybe those guys waiting for the persians to defeat the athenian army and then throw open the gates everybody from wants to hedge their bets right that's natural but if athens gates are thrown open the purchase can just get back in their ships maybe leave the covering force on the beach and sail around athens and go take a while your needed should be defending after this is still waiting for the spartans a marathon and truthfully this is an enormously compelling story that always has been if you look at it from the greek side you know as much as i'm trying to look into schmidt persian side i'm only human enough end of history and if you forget all that if i were having with the nonsense of the home team of western civilization they're still a compelling angle that totally neutral screenwriter warwick's poitier forgive her rocked issues no greek anyway rating for greek audience mean if you're in the procedure parisian screenwriter are you might turn the story into a great movie because i mean he's athenians have no chance they're not just the underdogs but the stakes are everything if the persians lose here and what the odds that they almost never lose no big deal them if the athenians lose lose two ways of looking at the macro and micro the mai greeted the athenians lose they get sold into slavery you know the males probably all dialogue people die it's gonna be horrible and they will pay for all and down to persia but on the mackerel act as hasn't reached it's simple social hyped in theaters historians might place it you know the part of that and that makes it so influential on the rest of the world history the reason we still think of it is different now they really haven't come to that we get there if they're on the way mean democracy is started all the stupid high water mark is still a ways away they get wiped out before that happens what is a lot of ways you could play that would give came right from the macro level we all have a stake in maybe athens surviving little bit longer are pleased but there's almost no chance of that right now the persian numbers are on known as always the ancient sources put as high as five hundred thousand persians we're on the beach somehow being fed and everything will but crazy if the numbers lows of the nine thousand which would make the greeks outnumber them that seems unlikely to you the story you should think it was about it yet frida won outnumbering that's that's pretty safe number three and also the range twenty five thousand fifty thousand men seems pretty normal to run into there's debate over whether or not the whole army was there on the beach or whether or not some of the rush to lumbar work on ships going elsewhere doing other things no one knows but not only do you have this intimidating army which wrong to specifically mentions the intimidation factor of persians there on the beach but they probably are not really my down every three to one but you know you have the spartans with you you're the cavalry nor the archers so not only does like a david and goliath struggle but it's like to go to david in zimbabwe gimme that sling that rock to anything else you might be tearing take issues often do this barefoot and tell me things to be against these opinions it's something that adds to the compelling nature of the story the odds are just incredible and they keep getting worse earlier we talked about history as a crime scene how often history to be going during you'd be the investigators there'd been so many different interpretations on this battle of miracle on that that is about to happen here in munich specter that they would be a lot of interest after all this battle is often confused with almost mythical levels of importance how big it was john stuart mill who said that the battle of marathon was a more significant event in bree schuster read in the battle of hastings was what's going crazy is for such an important event we know so little about it for sure and it leaves a lot of room to the experts disappearing disagree because the town of things that have to be pieced together number one on the list is how the heck does it even happened according to a rocket systems don't know what closest earlier sources about seventy seventy five years later he says there's a disagreement amongst the commanders these democratically like the general's awful mil tie amy's is worn the eroticism of tidy sum for other generals will attack and five other generals on the other side don't want what type boom an even split so he says no tidings been goes to the war our car that who's there who can break the yeah deadlock in multimedia so much more humans why he sure did the only one that has any bearing on why all the sudden the athenian should go on the offensive instead of waiting for the spartans writer muting the weight of chinese as more awake he says that the people in athens you're liable to turn against them to the before the collaboration side to meet guys if they don't do something for what will get worse according to one of my translation certainly puts it so the longer we secure them were the chances are that the tide will turn in the wrong party will get ahold of athens in the law open the gates and all this'll be for not sweeping away the spartans the leader tradition of the really tradition probably unreliable tradition suggest there was a turncoat a spot on the persians side who told the greeks the persian camp or worry was gone the horseman our way to hold on the reason that that comes up is because nobody can figure route how the biggest thing that the greeks were worried about the persian cavalry how we do not want to play any important role of all no mention of overall what about happen and given the fact that you're rotten to synthesize is that they have specially built horse transports you may be conveyed the horses and at marathon was specifically chosen because it would be good for cavalry where the heck are the horses well the sun will chinese is able to convince the war or con to support an aggressive attack against the persian lions i should also go not that there are other historians who think it will probably happened here is that the persians decided to attack and the greeks we'll put on their armor gone already formed up and met them another line of thinking is that the persians finally decided to move enola took a nothing's happening here i'm let's get ownership jumble sale the athens and you will ways to this army is we leave them on the beach and the more beat them back to their home city doesn't matter what happened apparently the greeks moved out according to her robert has been lined up their troops in the way so that they could match the persian line which supposedly outnumber them and so in order to match the length of the opposite side they had to make their ranks thinner peratis is that on the wings they were normal depth which was to stirrings think was about he ranks deep he says that they were only a few ranks deep in the center what historians think that's more like four ranks deep should they take him a chance here they'll avoid getting outflank 'em all left and right by matching the length of the persian line but to taking a chance by going awful shallow in the center the center is where the persians put their best troops according to her robert toombs the persians were caught off guard by an army of more than ten fowler's spearman charging him and he wore on he writes quote after the troops were in position in the sacrifices should prove unfavorable when the athenians were let loose i'm allowed to advance the charge there were on toward the barbarians the space between the two armies was about a mile in the persians who saw the athenians advancing towards them on the double for prayer to meet their attack they assume that the athenians were seized by some on early self destructive madness that they observed a few the athenians we're number and how they were charging for the win either cavalry nor archers in support so the barbarian suspected that the athenians id gone mad and cool the story's been tearing apart prerogatives as accountants ever since but in many ways you know we can't expect him to give us the sordid details that we need to invasion what's really going on here by one hundred years ago helms go broke was saying there's no way those hop allied twenty and i'm miles in armour and then you've got to the persian lines were they then had to exert themselves fighting impossible so the mini mini books and papers written out there about what actually happened at marathon will disagree about all the specifics of course would ever want would love this little bit more detail from rocket it's me said his great story of the money doesn't tell us anything about the archery of the cavalry what happened is just too left to piece it together it does appear that there was some rotting in ball because the battle would become known as about were these hot light rain into contact victor davis hanson says you know over the years to follow veterans of this battle could tell others that they fought to simply by saying we were a turn never would know what that meant and it makes sense to do a lot of his stories because if you're gonna run into one of the great middle fire or music history we said earlier with the machine god of archery fire you don't want to talk of moving the contacted by taking your time right you wanting get to the line so you can start to find him not suck up any more errors when you have to do on the way in so it makes sense like almost all the ancient riders robinson sisters vague all the details we would want there's a lot of writing about why this is a machine to be too gentle reasons won the ancient authorship on maybe not up to the style that they liked to go into the gory details we want to rub out in terms of the blog nuggets in everything power was visually for the senses like a horror movie but also so many of the physical element of physics of the battlefield but we talked about earlier that we'd like to understand that it was known to them up and their audience of mostly people who would've occasionally have fought in battles like this so be known to them two years away in hands and knees to point out this well understood problem we have the source is not telling us things that's obvious to them but the baffle law school exactly how hop alliance for their fears and battles is not immediately clear from ancient descriptions although most explicit evidence relates to the heavy infantry employed by the macedonians hellenistic kingdom from filled the second and alexander the great onward rather than to the heavy infantry the greek city states archaic in classical greek authors assumed that their audiences were familiar with the experience of combat and apart from recording the occasional streaking detail described battle only in the most general terms armies in advance white and in quotation marks polish until one side in quotation marks breaks and runs end quote so it's sort of left to modern day historians to sort of fill the gaps a little bit what the best account if you're gonna do this movie your turn her roberts is historian who movie you want a guy like historian tom holland to do that in a modern day screenplay because it's cinematic he turned it into one of these charge of the light brigade type stories which a tiny is so he's sticking to that spirit of the event and he has the this failing to know advancing into combat almost on the storm of the arose starts he's got the countdown thereby hundred fifty yards to run a hundred yards or fifty yards to go all the way getting closer and closer to the right code those are the enemy directly in their path every began scrambling to were wrecked wicker de fences as they realize to their horror that the wall of shields and i in shakespeare's far from providing easy pickings for their bowman as they are first imagined it was not going to be halted hundred yards fifty twenty ten then is the athenians war cry at terrifying mutilation rose even above the plundering of their feet up on the driver's the cacophony of clattering medal in the screams of the panic stricken enemy that the line scrunched into the persian lions the impact was devastating he writes the athenians head home their style of warfare in combat with other phalanx is wooden shield smashing against wooden shields i mean spirited clattering against breast plate the bronze now go in these first terrible seconds of collision there was nothing but a paul rising crash a medal in the flesh and bone the rolling of the athenian tide over man wearing a hat most quilted jerkins for protection and armed perhaps with nothing more than bowser slings the hot lights ashby years rather than shivering is invariably happened when one phalanx crushed into another but instead stamp and stab indian and those of the enemy whoa boy they're fearful jabbing might easily be crushed to death beneath the sheer weight of the advancing manner bronze and co the account by her roberts is leaves out almost all the stuff you wanna know about running his official account all the battle this most famous of in our military charges against all odds like a sensible but the charge of the white brigade had a thing he says quote they fought in the battle with marathon for a long time the barbarians prevailed in the center of alignment were the persians themselves in the sitcom were deployed as the barbarians were winning here are they broke through the line of the head leans in che stimulant the same time the athenians and platoons were prevailing on the wings in their victory there are they allowed the barbarian troops that they had rallied to fully an intro in both their wings together they foreclose any troops would broken through the centre in this encounter to the athenians were victorious as the persians fled the athenians pursued them and cut them down until they reached the sea when they called for fire and started to seize the ships and co one of the things is crazy about eroticism you screenwriter without whimsy in essence here he's trying to please an audience of greeks including creek that runs and he goes into loving parent roberta paragraph detail in over something like darius in the six hit team assassins going after the false marty out the new for one of the green his battles of world history even recognized at that time is being a huge deal he gives us like three paragraphs from start to finish and in those three paragraph she take some time off for some digressions and one real solid thing you would think you could come on in terms of that turned out to be wrong almost assuredly this is a perfect example why so many the history into this period have to be like crime scene investigators and how little they have to go on how they'll ingeniously do things like mani in the plays in the drama being performed in the greek theatre for example during the sailor right popular entertainment because the playwright were writing these places were often times veterans sometimes veterans of these very complex we're talking about the audience members war two and so what they make a joke about the you're rich guy who shows up at the failing to the super nice clothes and the triple horse hair crushed with the ostrich feathers in the news two thousand armor and then by the end of the battle you know it's all around all the waste because he'd get to cave in on itself honesty or any audience laughs it's kind of because those things may have happened the audiences permissive they're going to note i'd just like that right which is why play while the stories bingo aha we can piece together that piece of information into the parcel of what it was like to fight these kind of battles was in full disclosure to do so small chance that i told you this entire tale but have a reason to talk about my fascination with ancient combat i'm fascinated with all combat actually because they all no combat experience is done is cool pretty highly on my list of the streams of human experience as we certainly are fascinated by that but the different arrows each come with their own bid to truly a horrifying variables under certain element of war further on you shamed assumes the stone age but there's donuts defer to write what you face and say about one for don knapp what about all the sole motioning enough or for worse a very different experience for what the ancients older faced obviously the warfare since it's a little like the difference between hundred yard dash you know one day if you'll pardon the pun marathon thank you walter sprinting modern twenty centuries long war wharf thereabouts was a long howard distant relatives the challenges to the front lines soldier and different too but the worst key member of would you rather would you rather be in a soldiering the trenches in the first world war would you rather be a in ancient persia warrior to battle marathon take a choice the challenges in the stress on your psyche is different isn't it in those two kinds of situations sheeting to the modern soldier and there's a drip drip drip constant pressure if you think about on the psyche men cool serve no weaker to longer rama front lines in the trenches under fire in a twenty four seven risk of death day after day deadbeats on you would assert why the ancient warrior spacing indifferent to ask there lies relatively find most of the time outside about a bomb battle day the stress the intensity of the theories each dream so they don't get a drip drip drip on their psyche begin a tidal wave in on the psyche that hits over the space of a couple of hours equally her rustic challenge but different what about myself and i think this is our modern biased by the way i think we all have at the moment in terms of my mother my sister what i'm gonna take on the take the first world war which i have described several of the battles of those were minding the mordor but the first world war is on imaginable the sum of idiocy something i think in sexual lives but they were conditioned to understand better things closer to our own time in the way they thought the first world war something in it we grew up understanding right to dare use the machine guns it could be under fire that we need that it's all part of our understanding of essentially modern warfare and what people go through soldiers we don't all that the show waters much more exotic and therefore perhaps gaily and to exotic pictures of the time difference because they were doing this kind of warfare in a firm stone age time's up until a couple hundred years ago but for modern people watching it looks who were thickly similar to watching jack the ripper or at work he is butchery in the pew worsens of the word and it close up you're looking into the arms of the people you're killing maybe i'm just i'm modern when puts a lot easier for me to shoot come across a nice little intervening distance and somebody moving towards me whose face i can just barely make out the navy is to sit there and hear the grounds on the grounds of the last breath at her mouth i think most people feel that way one soldier court monday books i've read it said that when you know when you close up and can you can hear 'em it's a bitch polynesian warfare and most of the time which the arrow fire was done with it is a bitch here's what historian hanson least right concerning the difference usually soldier in the modern twentieth century great wars for example my toothpaste what the during two warriors on them battlefield a marathon faced he writes quote trauma of ancient greek battle was different from the experiences which we so many modern soldiers shell shocked or debilitated by post traumatic stress disorder greek soldiers he writes rarely came close to suffering extremes of physical deprivation associated with strange or jungle warfare and never saw their friends blown to pieces on the other hand papa like suffered a devastating experience almost on known in modern warfare dominated as it is by long range fighting with guns artillery in bombs of spinning it no more than an arm's length from the enemy and laying into one man after another with speak your sword and ultimately bearer hands and t. and co c. this is where ancient combat becomes like my little laboratory for observing cos you know in what he needs penis versus what's a you're not active our culture on our development let me think about yourself per second i think you like me can imagine yourself firing rifle at some enemy can you really imagine yourself under almost any conditions on the battlefield in a holding one into the spirit to drive the other aimed it chester face of another human being in by the way you're not telling you have to go into business human being into something like a beginner hope you can or that doesn't work in your daddy your other weapon in the slicing them for stabbing them with the sword face to face while they try to do the same to you i mean some of you can understand that we have all kinds of people but i mean if the majority of you out there isn't something you can realistically imagine yourself doing under almost any circumstance and i asked that because remember most of the people in these greek city state with the most barbaric accepted our regular people in these are our profession war caesar commercial people these are baker's these are far worse these are even meaner than the politicians about the news would be out there even i mean these people are going back to their jobs the day after the battle i can't help but think about us in the same situation i mean if the great simulation player in the sky i can help but think about my neck bostrom simulation period of time which is the changes the preference on his game up to one that no longer allows us to have any weapons that were invented after the year thirteen hundred could we go back to fighting the way they fought back then i mean do we create a. b. c. beastie freelance maybe the los angeles phalanx printed up from the wa send it back in time to take on the average to the states phalanx in ancient greek times and have them not dedicate and run away as soon as the spears of the enemy came close i mean i'm wondering if you can even trying more of our military units of the way forget the people of los angeles the b. little too thin is key but maybe katrina military unit of ours for your incentive that i bet you they be better at than the greek phalanx of maneuvering and then trail of all my testify that they have been down into the rubber meets the road moment of the counts when they have to face the spears headlong the citizen phalanx of acres in potter's and farmers who've done this before i'm a culture that understands it do you think are even military unit would stay in there when the spear start jabbing at each other's faces and not right away and here's the no question they really gets me thinking if you won't stand there because we just don't do that it's not our culture we don't have what they have anymore how long would it take to get it back if you decide you know the greasing really doing is going just to goes away we have to fight like a symbol to defend ourselves how long would it take how long does it take for the culture to rebuild the ability to do the skilled is not necessary for very long time nothing easy one think you would be so difficult for your radically but it turns out that over the last several hundred years as people and shot at each other more on the battlefields it's become harder harder to actually you know walk up to somebody else and stick him with a point yeah object there's been quite a bit written about this it seems to be bold bid to cure make the year it as one might expect also particularly abhorrent the people who have to do this during whoever knows what is one of the things that make some of the plane a military unit doctor with the british prepares for example modern old friend and comrade no more particularly intimidating because unlike most people they generally okay with the idea of coming to close grips most people would rather stay away because obviously it's nasty stuff in his book on killing lieutenant colonel david grossman says that he's the proximity to the victim that determines you know how resistant to killing people tend to be in the baton you get to like bayonet rain she says the resistance on the part of human beings both on the receiving end of the giving end of the bayonet easy intense what happens when we're talking about purina warfare we're that's not unusual event as it is in modern warfare it's the way you do business it's how we you fight we stick people with pointy things were the status with theirs welcome to war for almost a human history from the stone age until a couple hundred years ago nowadays it's the nastiest thing most soldiers contemplate grossman along with a lot of other historians goes on to point out how most historians think that the idea that there was ever bayonet fighting you know bayonets those those long lines on the hands of rifles the people used for a long time i mean the american revolution we have them the napoleonic wars the u. s. of war the first world war they still use bayonets are have 'em for military today but it seems like almost never been killed by juan the dirty little secret apparently according to gross one another's is that one aside always rollins before having to get stopped by the other usually according to grossman decided didn't have to stick the other side is coming gladiator have to either he says when to bayonet lines came together historically citicorp very often either side to bring itself to close with the enemy's bayonets the advance falters in the two parties began to fire on one another for ridiculously short range is equal even court some other stories and say when soldiers one community in bayonet range of other soldiers somehow we just managed to turn their guns around were often using the butts of their rifles as clubbing instruments instead he said quote we can understand then that the average soldier as an intense resistance towards bayonet in his fellow man and at this act is surpassed only by the resistance to being very amended the horror of being bayonet duties intents and co well of course it is sir you said the modern people don't wanna stick a knife in the anybody else in that they don't want a knife stuck in there that makes perfect sense but nowadays you can avoid that in most cases this is the goal of ancient battle the very thing he says modern people would most like to avoid the grossman's going veterans were saying that the worst thing that they ever dealt with was the kind of thing the greek and persian soldiers dealt with in every battle what's missing of course in this whole question is something from the persian side to try to get an idea what was like for persian soldier fighting and rang several we try looking to salute more than at least normal from the persian side of things but there aren't any accounts if an individual soldiers in the ranks or generals or anything from the persian side does come down to was that we give us the equivalent would agree to do which is a tiny little window one more little title in the mosaic helping the historical dusty gators recreate a little bit about what this combat must've been like it's sort of historically ironic that one little you can divine about what this must've been like for the persian you get from the greek sources often talking about hop whites who fought differently than their opponents we have to weed out things that are specifically part of the greek top flight experience that when the plight of parisian says something like that from the notice the other things maybe we would call them the physics of the battlefield that would be present for anybody in a pre gunpowder about whether we're talking about the wounds with of the year persians or to deal with that on their side as much as degree turn to deal with it on their though we may only have the greeks version of events in which which traveling with the persian experience must be like you know we've mentioned the idea couple of times of the creeping incontinence and then turning in running away because in these ancient battles the theory is the key component in fact one could make a case to the main thing that in general wants to figure out how to win a battle plan is how to create the biggest chance in cuba and scare the other side then if you think about people is kind of like spooked animals a bitter personal horse heard when they get scared and all of us and the fear spreads from the initial point of contact hello rattlesnake to scare them or whatever and you know sort of moves like oh a shock wave through the whole herd that's what people facing danger which used to do if allowed to do whatever came naturally right we see danger we go on the other direction par with military discipline has been aiming to do pretty much since anxious to marry or before it is to keep people from getting into that natural urge right of self defense preservation urgent evolutionary no advantage certainly right the reason for your is a bigger more acute problem on ancient battlefield and amar one has to do with the sides when you have an occasion where units panic and we're on a break route whatever term you wanna use in the big modern wars i was a small cancer in a big organism they can usually be isolated and color rise to relatively easily without the entire enterprise along a giant line being too badly affected but in the constrain space of these ancient battlefields and it was contagious then you don't know how many people he takes to ron before everybody does nonetheless when people start to rwanda it's almost as though the little thin piece of your intellect that is keeping you were you're supposed to be to our military discipline and everything else snaps new further sang lost one is rotten egg the ancient battlefield last one is dead would be a better phrase because when a route happens the people most likely to stand and try that just to get out of the ones with the most blame the least likely be given the ones that don't be cowards and sure persian warmed to run away but they're also the last to get away in the one to disappear in the back first during the pursuit were the majority of casualties and dished out by the way that's where you die on ancient art historian richard gabriel's at school in every army there is a mob waiting to escape and it's motivation is the year the real killer on the ancient battlefield was the year men in combat have their instinctive flight or flight response is held in delicate balance by athena string of intellect continued stress increases the probability that someone within the ranks will lose his nerve and ron sometimes the actions of the single soldier are sufficient to forge the onset of panic in an entire unit was the integrity of the formation began to erode the ancient soldier was a very great risk of death or injury and cool and so everybody's kind of in trying to stand around without wanting to be the last guy to get away if things go badly so if everything's so the helmet by such a narrow strand of discipline the greeks used to talk about the god for most and that's from the mean the route to sing with the deepest columbia named the year with the gaunt and the room of the word panic who can sometimes come into these ancient battlefield to sweep through the mud like a herd of horses images spook everybody media saw someone get around your flight on ancient outfield you my ron you might spook him if you do to you next to you might spook also p. c. friendly unit route you might spook and ron and if a bunch of people in your unit start getting torn to she says the bloody carnage right near you you might decide to turn round two for your psyche might decide to eliminate all choice in the matter and terror blind terror might just take over in theory is actually you know something that is exploring the bold and it's paying attention to the mean you feel like there's almost a connection to the animal kingdom we're talking about warfare in the error we came to grips with your adversary or nearly so the same reso's animals look upon their hind legs to stand up tall order knuckle ball job to make them look bigger it's a psychological thing right it is it's a intimidation move maybe you could call him in part of the reason these greeks have these giant crest on her helmet same reason multiple leon troop and it goes really in a tall granted here captain major look taller occasioned a little bit of extra intimidation imposing factor on opponent and we still greek hampshire might come face to face with it and that's when something like a little extra intimidation factor could be the difference between life and death in fact some units were considered to be in some people's or mutual considered to be extreme to me dating your stories about holiness running before combat some time is running after they see the lambda those on the spartan shields to that the new law of the people from ever sir spartans some people can wait around to see on that was going to turn out and so to be intimidating was just one extra thing that helped the spartans when they actually came to babylon there were bunches of units and types of troops that have those sorts of intimidating reputations the superseded them to be intimidating is something they can actually give you an engine and hand combat you know even that term hand to hand combat you know to me it sounds almost nice doesn't like to help and and when in reality and keep trying to remind myself that we're talking about so what if it happened in a the civilians of context today would be a face to face brutal murder there's a lot of collegiate can watch 'em on conflicts in many places were you'll see someone get killed in the wing manning again somewhere or moving some little listen you're you're crack some time to read distance when i was looking in some will fall down it'll be this horrifying experience for all concerned with their budgets this shark it's over in two seconds and in your ear in the terror soared after the fact the whole different than you get a chance to march up and see your fate he was a marches toward you and you know no one no one is not giving out you're alive you both might die and as you getting closer people summing up to know which person and a crowd of people you're running torture of the aim towards in what might be leaning towards you mean that the thoughts that lunchroom head the challenger in different ways in these ancient battles you again just wonder how people did this historians often used to build the hilly arid stories of homer as a tool to understand kind of how these weapons you were gonna wounds that they inflicted and how people reacted and whatnot because the weapons of the same even that may be having used was different that's terrifying stop that one of her were thick enough how come after another the spirit goes through the idaho on the brain who loses down the shaft and stuff like that horrible things got to people get hit in the groin it's awful and in return restructure relies you may be the reason that the ancient playwright and these authors didn't get into the gory details about all these battles that we want here 'cause we can imagine it a. b. as the people in their audience might even trying to forget some of it but it's absolutely terrifying mortars terrifying anyway but having to face this kind of conflict in your you'd need your released interesting greek failings awful lot of time to people fighting right next to you our relatives and friends and loved ones and local politicians and the butcher the baker in the people do you know and that's great in terms of stiffening you in helping your resolve and and fostering sort of a camaraderie from people gilmore training together all the time you have the camaraderie naturally casually did you know we gender any group together what have you the one most people start dying it's the double edge sword of that affect all of a sudden you in the ranks trying to keep it together not runner watching you know you're not born to people you know gets spewed in the face and having the brain that run through the eye hold down the shaft of the spirit is there i mean it's just it's terrifying on a visit your even know how people control themselves forget about having any subconscious sense of the year the greeks were terrified to all the people of them let's just say a very respectful of the power of combat forever but stories abound besides the union voluntary los all of the being condoms should we say of the other rancorous into stories and trembling in the ranks their stories of teeth chattering was so loud widespread and it was supposed to drown out the sound of the speaker people understood what they faced and there was involuntary responses to that that are just human how do so wished you would disappear well how would you deal with it how soldiers dealt with him forever there been widespread conversations shall we say most historians for very long time over how much you should or should not assume the presence of alcohol when one of these battles or other drugs there are all kinds of problems trying to figure this out in for example in a lot these cultures to drink a lot anyway and you separate what was the norm more wine ration for a breakfast for some of these soldiers you know from the extra amount they drink because they were going to in the face of waltz be years ago had run into him on that day he hard to figure one historian when asked to theorize about the likelihood of public's going into battle drunk he said that the likelihood was that they were almost drunk to take up for what it's worth and it would be surprised in one corner wonders how people you themselves and to do this with the other party wonders how they live with it afterwards we do things haunt their dreams how would you react if you killed someone by hand with you killed eight people with a knife over your lifetime with the change you how would that change you would you still be normal what is normal we wish you done this in the service of your country killing people with a knife you're a hero are you on effective in if you're affected how are you affected and if that's not normal especially in our society today in that person is unusual in when compared to the normal your rank and file of the population in an unusual experience one of the ancient whirlwind some of these places you could reasonably expect the diesel percentage of the year people in the society's to kill people and and thomason has multiple people so in other words what might be very abnormal in the society to be first is to multiple people with an edge weapon might be a relatively normal experience of some of these other places how does that change the society bernie when people could say a husband and got my dad didn't have my grandfather did on killed sixteen people actually but i hope my sober up someday into that too and when that's in the characteristics in the expectation levels of society how does that alter the equation in this whole question not call to him in farmington nature nurturing dish you could say even goes back to really manifest when you when you read some of the debate between the experts but whether or not easy to people's suffer from what we call today posttraumatic stress disorder because of their involvement in this kind of murderous conflict historian richard gabriel suggested to most of them thousands of psychological casualties refugees term owing should battles but there's a whole school of thought that suggests that that's not true and by the way to him wonderful to see the addition to that traditionally storing to causes us to been dealing with this chemical russian forever in a row scientists evolutionary biologist biochemist and people who knew focus so much another brain functions because some of this stuff that these people go through can be impacted by the way they were raised in some other stuff is to tell your brain is wired hard to figure were warnings in the other begins and the debate is fantastic for example if we went back in our little mythical encounter between the los angeles phalanx and the city state of thieves do you think you could go in your view the survivors of the los angeles phalanx four years later it we'd be expecting some psychological p. t. s. b. hangover type casualties some of facts i'm as we will expect it to be some but just a haunting memories of the very least the question over whether the ancients actually suffer from this that was interesting and you might imagine it in restoring some others comb through the original material in fact at the battle of marathon her radha to says you're sick case that modern day researchers often point to is an example off the p. t. s. b. eroticism story of the soldier when blinded the bottle it was totally endangered the story is the sole warrior huge warrior with a huge beard coming to strike him and instead the warrior struck the man next to him and the site instantly disappeared from this man and he never got back in a lot of as i said marnie researchers point to that as an example of what in the first world war the second world war they might call hysterical blindness were these guys reading called a convergence disorder or something like that above my pay grade to understand but the point was to say suggested in twentieth century combat he would not be an unexpected thing to have happen anthropologist alan young for example says that what we call p. t. s. b. today is not the time was for uniform he says that the idea of dramatic memory is called man made in court something the region aid in nineteenth century thought he says quote before that time there is unhappiness despair and disturbing recollections but no traumatic memory in the sense that we know it today in short the person who quotes in the region from so is to call truly conditioned response to trauma and co the person i'm calling from those historic lawrence trouble was suggesting that due to neuroscience now becoming involved it's starting to look more and more likely responses that modern day soldiers have to some of their combat experience is he is timeless and as a sort of a universal soldier they call it aspect to it the kind of thing where modern day soldier should be able to misery with these hop whites were these persians of marathon and talk about some similar things maybe average murray shaking things up suggest that the greeks for example maybe the persians to would've had any bad thoughts about the people they killed they would've been haunted by ghosts and stuff like that because all the societal carrots and sticks were warned that in and they would've been torched notches on the sword melt the the family on irwin golden the no societies really discouraging killing of your enemies to the people or the state warren your local district or what have you so they would've been a time of support for the idea that greetings to be done things worth bragging about is supposed to hear fretting about the same time anybody's liable to go through these experiences that just haul archer nightmares in the wake up in cold sweats from later referred to by jew killing somebody else i'll buy you near really being killed yourself watching your body and that spear shot through space or whatever might be panic of the moment is nature's human to expect that that might come and find you later in your dreams or elsewhere or does your culture insulate you somehow from that too article one read suggested maybe case could be made an offer these societies were not for those people experienced incidents like that could be called a dramatize society does that explain things that it you would go through india mean does it take to dramatize assign me to fight you wanna be's battle that would traumatized us today as barry insulated from it earlier today any of these things that i find them all fascinating and i find that the laboratory it helps us to do experiments with these kinds of questions is ancient battle so opens up the door told them totally fascinated by what does can tell us about people and culture when stuff like that and we think about cultural differences for a minute let's remember what new as many v. will always go now to me what these people grew up watching what their lives were like nice to people that nobody's using issue we don't get executions for the entertainment value right short-term memory that little bit bitter davis hanson tells a story in trendy give us an idea about how terrifying the horrible the battlefields were the day after the battle was over in the bee's ancient battles and he says that sightseers would go to the battles that sometimes get the ruler to one these battles were actually in a ferry the sightseers over and sometimes couldn't even keep up with the dominion these people that want to walk not for looting purposes as for entertainment value bellowing say something here buying old or sick bunch and i know that if you put this stuff upon you to all law u. out the window and watch it many of you out there would click on the website video that show which you wanna be's battlefields afterwards which is really indicative of how nasty these battles are because you are like modern warfare this all happens in a confined space and it is the confined space to create uniquely are worth a slaughterhouse studies in ancient battlefield which by the way is a historically extinct thing nobody will ever see this again and nobody has seen it for like four hundred years the scottish water in it combines space would you go on the two russian i wanna be in that hot air balloon which by the way i read another book someone else sense of a b. c. ripped off unconsciously but i've often said that will be up there and honorable newt looking down internal by questions about how this formation and old relax we move on the battlefield totally forgetting the going on a hundred feet below me is absolute madness people absolutely scared out of their minds cutting each other up but the timing madness and is no way i'm going on with the two were afterwards in the dimly anyone susan the note you because say that modern warfare is what the budget jumbo jets crashing over relatively wide daily the bodies were often burned war torn up and that's considered to be an actor bad thing if you're in for four awards the torn up bodies are de stabilizing to your mind it's awful and the smell was like you know of explosives or fuel but if you go to an ancient battlefield looks a lot more like a budget individual murderers thousands of all his enough on monday she basically minister what you can walk the battlefield and recreate what you're seeing this guy stand back at least two people killed each of the rebels die the meaning you're watching a lot of different individual stories when you walk those battlefields and you're getting your shoes extremely dirty victor davis hanson reconstruction one of these feels must've looked like an remember he's talking about the onlookers who would go afterwards to experience what it was like one of these battlefield the day afterwards by the way eroticism sixty four hundred persians that marathon about two hundred greeks which you issue one side again should bow could be if those numbers are correct imagine going to the battlefield the day after that yours johanson describes the reality of this that historically extinct thing that must've been very familiar to you they're human beings for tens of thousands of years he writes quote besides dish your concentration embodies the most common sight to these onlookers within the quantity of spilled blood and gore is some of the larger battles between hot lights de leon a look for a guy putting out thousands of corpses lie with huge gaping wounds from the stealing soared since the fleiss was never use underrated as it came to be in modern battles by the explosion abomination all that because the entry and exit wounds created by double edged irons be your hands tends to be larger than those cars by small arms fire the bodies were drained much of their bodily fluids upon the ground walking among the pile of corpses entailed training everywhere rober stain jurist and pools of blood libya says that after zalm on the battlefield was so thick with bloody corpse is that it was nearly impossible to advance over the ground which suggests that many had attempted to do just that is famous description of cornea them upon recall that the very first had turned were it a phrase that was probably no exaggeration in sicily at the final slaughter of the athenians in for thirteen the bodies of the deadly piled on top of each other when the water there spilled blood during the very current for it the tow truck were korda similar picture after the death of some twenty five thousand macedonian teichmann impede now the entire plane there he says was filled with corpses in the river locals ran red with their blood again this seems likely if each of the fallen man lost them your third of his six portable i'd either during the final moments of death or after the corpse lying in the dust there could've been more than ten thousand gallons to soak up the old and cool ten thousand gallons of blood soaked in the field it's ten or twenty football fields long to me simply walking out feel the next day would be one of the extremes of human experience i can imagine being one of the people who had to create that maps or to be honest anyone want to try to clean it up the massive marathon and two words could donovan tidy it up too quickly 'cause one of the things of course being very different man than yours truly there we are told that the spartans wanted you assume is the moon's phase you know turned correct and they were able to show up too late to find in the battle but apparently not too late to see the bodies of the one to go look at the dead persians and the battlefield probably would mind sing a good executioner to one way different time she the aftermath of the battle of marathon is frustrating for military history standpoint because didn't he say earlier did this is an occasion where tactical weapons systems actually the impact history all the way up to the really big trains and forces level but there's not enough information about how this battle went to waiting for you discern anything in you wanna calories in the face off against the hop like to have that new weir weapons system anomalies in the play out but eroticism even mention the cavalry which is why ever one wonders were used then you wonder about the arch renews the machine gun our tradition of molly's how points out the peratis doesn't mention anything about the archer reader deleting he mentions with any certitude is he said that at the victorious wings of the greek army turned around and surrounded the persian surrender not a word to double involvement which i can find historian to think yes that's likely in a period were greeks were better trained him better drilled in the hellenistic era you still rarely could have a single involvement but historians suggest it's a little strange to think that these citizen haul flights from athens were able to achieve a double want especially you planning to women carrying it out so one thing to reduce toshiki i'm just not be true history is you know will play with ideas like all the greeks were victorious today have a lot more fight for which is certainly true but all speculation that doesn't tell you anything you feel lucky we needed it throw whole thing for cliffhanger episode than the cliffhanger episode of the show you're watching has a cliffhanger episode of the year and it's a heavyweight fight begins on the fall although let's not take anything away from the greek victory it's huge it's a assassins right meet the beams holding such pride in their victory marathon that they will continually we were minding greek suited for a very long time famous playwright why we put on there are no the equivalent of the tombstone instead of any reference to the er work in the theater watch him or for a marathon that means no it that kind of thing so that comes apart mythology the notches greek mythology which as we said at the beginning you western traditional mythology ever since the from the persian point of view in a marathon may have even just been the single set back on an expedition that had towns all of positives here brioche to guess that this whole affair was a punitive expedition you know we burned eritrea we had most of the air reassume interest in water to the great king so before we left those places were beholden to us now they are so you have one set back at marathon troops would easily replace mani we are more than we need and by the way they don't really look like to be ignore me when they leave marathon we're told that the battle of marathon in from the persian to get on their ships and leave the word they go they don't go home like a tail between your legs strangling hoping that they're not chase down don't run down to the ground they don't athens they take another stab at getting into the city had your niece not there we just lost and your lisa one of sail around taken the image of our extra mobility and capture athens water donegan your rumors of fifth columnists inside the city sing out now now and shields flashing on the top of mountain sides you know who knows then you have another part of the story which is famous again for the greek born if you were the troops of marathon go the twenty five miles on foot high speed faster than you could even expect among the time the persian free polls and of the harbert athens the sea the army they just lost to waiting there for them so now they compare the prophet loss column and especially if we're on the mothers are white mrs morgan punitive expedition bitter reach even major goals to an hour ago while the greeks and especially the athenians are justifiably proud of defeating the persians a marathon money should be mingled with the odds of that you can help but think that what's happened here now is that they've managed to go from the napped that was a minor annoying installment dragon red giants and they were absent mindedly swapping of them with your hand to something they've been hard enough to get their full attention and find themselves now in the cross hairs i'm in news not just the king of kings but he's been on the throne for more than thirty years he is known for competent his people according to her reduced nothing to him as a shopkeeper or how pastor we thought of a more like a ceo he reminds me of like at the steven jobs type character somebody who's the whole story being he's infused in the corporate structure i mean after thirty years of rule the persian empire has to write us all all for it and now he decides that he's going to lead a beaker better prepared expedition to greece himself you want something done right sometimes you just have to do it personally what from a business sense or a self promotion sense the internet's the greatest thing that ever happened to recover people like that and talk to people about this all the time abuse beneficiary the fact that out the habit broadcast prince menu radio station to do why do those of you who do online commerce or four even trying to get your name or work out there do we have disadvantage of web sites and i don't think we quite realize the revolutionary nature of them they become such an integral part of our lives the novelty has worn off but trust me once upon a time doing for yourself what website does for you was extremely expensive i'm only the very few could do with this is a form of democratized media putting your hands and it doesn't have to be complicated they can be simple daisy can be powerful and beautiful an inexpensive to think about swear space when you watched our new website only eight dollars a montague freedom main if you buy square space for years you want to worry about things like responsive designed scale on the device already commerce is built into would cover pages are built into it can do it yourself than it looks great if you've ever thought about having the website might be worth a try not to that of experiment in usually i find when people put website together not only do they continue to do that but they often make it evolve and change and grow i firmly believe down the road most people will have some version of their own website and most of us don't wanna spend it on a time coming certainly autonomy pangs of professional firm to do which you can do with square space and it's simple powerful and beautiful you get ten percent off your first purchase if you sign up to square spacing use or for code our core swear space bill to beautiful even to show you this sir is worth a dollar gannon better woodland habitat abacha shelf it's all we ask canadian carlin that calm for information on how to donate to the shelf can you have drama without the dramatist it's something i keep asking myself as i look ahead to the next part of the story because if you believe the ancient sources they always make it sound as though the mainland greeks i'd be the means and the spartans really had little or no contact with the persian empire until the period that we just talked about one step you read happen is the greeks and the persian he can just see their fates become like unbreakable he linked with each other in influences the story dramatically because the dramatic people were writing about it take the dry facts that you might be able to glean from the babylonian records for example the true form tablets and make them live they reject the collar into the situation if you talk about being political type things like i tended to any shows those are traumatized by people like robert is the persian empire is doing things in other course of your empire things that you can sometimes find out about or glean from things like babylonian cuneiform tablet that doesn't mean a dramatic and sometimes is very little to talk about other than to say we can tell that the persians were operating in the northeast of their empire during these years what is we're agreed tells that story is probably love affair involved were some wonderful oracle has spoken or somebody's doing some stuff into skins and carmaker payback for so even though we want look if the story more from the persian side that is normal were to be hamstrung like everyone else and we're going to ask you you know let's be honest it's it's hard to not loving embrace some of these new parisian concrete kabuki dance is that they do with each other we try to look at it from the persian side as much as we can but as always your during the day and harlan version of the story and i find it just like it a filmmaker with me give me as much latitude pleases you give oliver stone to take a part of the story out that does blow my mind and stringing together i always figured you can get the traditional telling of the story from some more credible source than yours truly she can't get my incredible telling them the story from any credible source i'm off but to complement or not but um in the next episode this program where shrubbery darn soon at the beginning with war this one most famous wars ever and scully be followed by some similar conflicts or to that is this little intertwined destiny between the greek in the persian you know people's us a little like i was thinking it's a little like a man and woman that just can't stay away from each other but to add this poisonous relationship maybe it's some point the man representing the persian empire was sealed it have any woman who want us need all of this drama goes back and finally breaks away in the toxic relationship is ended and then somehow some way the greek spit fire woman shows up with a new abusive boyfriend to punches him in the nose and is give the rest of the show away well probably in the next episode but i've learned to make no promises that have a whole one schwartz as we continue this maybe endless saw ago we've kings of kings or three